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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 4:31 pm 
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Talking with a fellow IMWANker one on one, got me pondering all of the "nostalgia miniseries" that Marvel has put out over the last several years, and how many of them I have sampled, during my time as a Doot.

I feel that these miniseries are a cool idea, letting fans enjoy a "period piece" that is set during the era when their target audience (middle-aged fat dudes) were still wide-eyed children, with their whole life ahead of them, still capable of becoming anything, anything at all ...

#OhGodWhereDidItAllGoWrong ...

... but I digress.

Anyway, I thought I'd write about all the ones I've read, and if anyone else has read any of these and wants to talk about them, they can do that in this thread too. And if any new ones are announced, that can be talked about in this thread too.

Or maybe the thread will just be me, and it will fade quickly into oblivion.

We shall see!


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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 4:49 pm 
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I keep thinking that a re-imagined series of all of Silver-Age Marvel might be fun.
Sort of how Marvel had an All Ages Spider-Man book that redrew and reworded (slight updates) to the earliest
Amazing Spider-Man comics. In the same way that Thor The Mighty Avenger did the early Journey Into Mystery
characters but updated them into more modern stories.

For example, I keep reading how the modern audience will sometimes buy Silver Age X-Men, but they absolutely
hate it (apart from a couple of Kirby issues, like against the Juggernaut). I think it would be fun to re-do those
early X-Men stories, but make some (probably) radical changes to shake things up. For example, even changing
the sex of one of the original five X-Men might help things. Imagine a female Beast (still the beefy powerhouse
and smart person on the team). Sure, in this age of gender and racial swapping in movies, this would piss people
off, but imagine if it had been that way from the start. Or imagine if the X-Men were always (and early on) going
to get a second (even third) mutation as the story advanced. Angel, for example, could fly. But Warren, for example,
said in a early issue that mutants healed quickly (or something like that). Allow Angel to heal quickly as a second
mutation. Give him the third mutation of being able to heal others later on (but not using his blood or anything like
that which would have been gross in the 1960s). Suddenly, in this age when many heroes fly, Angel doesn't just
appear to be a flying target.

And I still want to rewrite Hank Pym and his villainous cast as a big secret government science project.

The thing is, the stories are essentially the same (or strongly inspired by) the original stories. Just set in the 21st
Century with a lot fewer thought bubbles and exposition.

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Last edited by Beachy on Mon Mar 31, 2025 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 4:50 pm 
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X-MEN LEGENDS

This was a series where X-creators of the past were invited to come in and do little one- or two-part stories set in "their" X-eras.

I think the X-Men franchise is a particularly ripe one for nostalgia minis, because that status quo is always in flux. "Omnia mutantur," as it were. So the only way to get new content featuring the X-Men that one remembers from one's childhood is through flashback-stories, "period" comics.

Or you could read X-Men: Elsewhen, I suppose.

But don't do that.

So I think "Legends" had stuff by Weezie Simonson, Fabian Nicieza, Roy Thomas .... one or two others, I suppose. This wasn't really a "miniseries" but it was finite. I think it lasted 24 issues ....?

Anyway, I only read three of those. A two-parter by Ann Nocenti and then a done-in-one by Chris Claremont.

The Claremont one was all right. I think after writing ... I don't know ... 10,000 pages of X-Men comics? .... Claremont no longer has anything new to say about these guys. It doesn't help that the quality of his writing has plummeted drastically over the last 30 years.

I liked Claremont's little "Legends" piece ... an "Excalibur issue 0" type of deal that is meant to slot in just before the events of the Excalibur "Special Edition" comic that launched that series back in 1987. It features some deep-cut villains: Hardcase and the Harriers, who loomed large for me in my childhood despite only appearing in exactly two Claremont comics: Wolverine #5, from 1988 and X-Men #261, from 1990. They were two early comics for me as a Doot Baby, so Hardcase and the Harriers seemed really really significant.

But they weren't.

But I thought they were.

Oh, I forgot, one member of the Harriers, "Axe," who was originally based on Mr. T, actually first appeared in New Mutants #7 or #8 back in 1983. Five years later, Axe got teamed up with two guys -- Hardcase and Shotgun. The trio were clearly meant to evoke the A-Team. But there was an allusion to an entire team of "Harriers." It was similar to how when Vindicator first showed up in X-Men, he made an allusion to Alpha Flight to whet fans' appetites for later. Claremont has his li'l tricks!

When the full team of Harriers appeared in X-Men 261, they failed to set fandom on fire the way Alpha Flight did a decade earlier. This despite the fact that Claremont and Silvestri actually had a notion that they might be able to spin the Harriers off into their own series. Maybe it would have actually happened if Silvestri hadn't been part of the Image Exodus two years later.

Anyway, so in Claremont's "Legends" story -- set BEFORE any earlier appearance of Hardcase (the leader of the group, their George Peppard if you will (and if that is that guy's name)) -- Nightcrawler and Kitty Pryde fight Hardcase and the Harriers.

It's fine, although it actually doesn't read very smoothly if you read it and then move right on into the Excalibur Special. And the whole point is that it's a prequel to the special. But Claremont has no detailed memory of his own stuff, and apparently no inclination to go back and reread it before returning to it for the purposes of a nostalgia-based continuity insert. What a lazy fuck.

I liked seeing Hardcase and the Harriers having one last Hurrah-ier, but it's definitely one for the Klaremont Kompletists only. I can't imagine a casual reader getting any enjoyment out of this one, whatsoever.

------
But this can be contrasted with Ann Nocenti's Longshot two-parter. This was her contribution to "Legends," and it is a thing of beauty. I know I simped for Nocenti a lot in the Daredevil thread, but the reality is I don't actually like EVERYTHING she does. But this Longshot two-parter is fantastic. It's set after the original Longshot mini from 1985, but before Longshot was then imported by Claremont into X-continuity (in the 1986 X-Men annual). This means that all the characters have to get a memory wipe at the end, to preserve the "first" meeting between Longshot and the X-Men in the annual. But despite that oddity (which isn't that odd, because actually Longshot getting his memory reset was his whole deal back then already) ... it's a really slick story. Nocenti brings in Mojo, her brilliant villain creation that is oft used to satirize American media. A character like that never really needs to go out of style, and her use of Mojo in the two-parter proves that she can still do some biting social satire, even a couple decades after that DD run with JRJr -- arguably the peak of her "social commentary" comix-writing.

Her "Legends" story is punchy and witty, a real joy to read. And Nocenti also did her homework, I think ... going back and re-reading her own work and Claremont's work from 1985 and 1986, so that she would get the details right and make the comic fit smoothly in the era wherein it's set. Very, very good stuff.


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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 5:03 pm 
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Beachy wrote:
I keep thinking that a re-imagined series of all of Silver-Age Marvel might be fun.
Sort of how Marvel had an All Ages Spider-Man book that redrew and reworded (slight updates) to the earliest
Amazing Spider-Man comics. In the same way that Thor The Mighty Avenger did the early Journey Into Mystery
characters but updated them into more modern stories.

For example, I keep reading how the modern audience will sometimes buy Silver Age X-Men, but they absolutely
hate it (apart from a couple of Kirby issues, like against the Juggernaut). I think it would be fun to re-do those
early X-Men stories, but make some (probably) radical changes to shake things up. For example, even changing
the sex of one of the original five X-Men might help things. Imagine a female Beast (still the beefy powerhouse
and smart person on the team). Sure, in this age of gender and racial swapping in movies, this would piss people
off, but imagine if it had been that way from the start. Or imagine if the X-Men were always (and early on) going
to get a second (even third) mutation as the story advanced. Angel, for example, could fly. But Warren, for example,
said in a early issue that mutants healed quickly (or something like that). Allow Angel to heal quickly as a second
mutation. Give him the third mutation of being able to heal others later on (but not using his blood or anything like
that which would have been gross in the 1960s). Suddenly, in this age when many heroes fly, Angel doesn't just
appear to be a flying target.

And I still want to rewrite Hank Pym and his villainous cast as a big secret government science project.

The thing is, the stories are essentially the same (or strongly inspired by) the original stories. Just set in the 21st
Century with a lot fewer thought bubbles and exposition.

That would be interesting.

The closest thing I can think of to what you're describing -- at least in terms of attempts that really worked (for me) -- was not in comics, but the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon from 2008. It had a lot of classic villains, and even did some of the classic stories (Master Planner, the Green Goblin saga, the Sinister Six). It also recreated certain classic moments verbatim, like the Spider-Man-buried-under-rubble bit that ended the Master Planner story. And the "Face it, Tiger, you just hit the jackpot!" moment was pretty much completely unaltered from the comics.

But it gave everything a modern spin -- with some of the aesthetic inspired by the Raimi trilogy, which was smart. Granted, they didn't stick to the Silver Age, as you're suggesting. The symbiote/Venom reared his head pretty early on, for example. But a LOT of it was based on the classic Ditko stuff. They also -- since they knew where they were going, already possessed of the blueprint provided by Ditko, Lee, et al -- were able to make fantastic use of foreshadowing. The pilot episode features the Enforcers and the Vulture as the super-villains ... but we also see the seeds planted for villains whose origins would be depicted later. Harry Osborne is in the pilot, as is Otto Octavius ... Curt Connors is there .... and the future Rhino, the future Sandman ... Eddie Brock is possibly in there too, and I think an allusion is made in the pilot to a crimelord called "The Man" (another classic Silver Age story, although "Spectacular" would eventually reveal "The Man" as Tombstone). Just a beautiful lineup of dominos, that are then toppled over the course of the 26 episodes, as one classic Ditko villain after another makes his debut.

I remember watching it thinking, THIS is how the comics should have done their Spider-Man "modernizations." Not the endless talkiness of Bendis' "Ultimate," and not the sheer dreadfulness of "Chapter One." And not the increasingly hacky, poor writing of pretty much every Spider-Man movie after Raimi's first ...

"Spectacular Spider-Man" .... THIS was the adaptation that cracked it.

So yeah ... if they did something like that for the original Silver Age X-Men or Avengers ... or even ... DARE I say his name ... ? ....

I'd be up for it. And also down for it.


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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 5:23 pm 
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SYMBIOTE SPIDER-MAN

I already talked about this one in the Daredevil review thread. The original idea ... Peter David writing in that brief period of time in 1984 between Amazing Spider-Man 252 (when the alien costume debuted) and 259 (or thereabouts), when the costume was revealed to be EEEEEVIL.

Peter David first started writing Spidey comics in 1985. So for anyone nostalgic or mid-eighties Spidey ... what a brilliant idea. Get one of the writers from that era, but have him write just a smidge earlier than his actual debut on the character, so that you get something that pushes nostalgia buttons while also being something unique in the annals of the symbiote era: a Peter David script! Or, looked at from the other direction ... something unique in the annals of PAD Spidey-writing ... a tale of Peter wearing the symbiote suit! Brilliant idea!

And the execution -- absolutely lived up to the promise. That first five-issue Symbiote Spidey mini is a thing of absolute beauty. Great characterization ... a simple but clever story that features Kingpin and Mysterio in the roles of lead villains. Also throw in a couple of cameos by some minor Spidey villains as well ... plus you get the Black Cat, a pillar of the "symbiote costume" era, whose black-and-white aesthetic perfectly matched that of the new Spidey Suit. (There is black and there is white and there is nothing -- NOTHING -- in between.)

PAD's dialogue was in top form too. For anyone familiar with his quippy style, he was really on point with that mini. The jokes all land nicely, but the story still has moments that are dramatic and intense ... and PAD also manages to give the symbiote suit a sense of menace. Even though this has to be done in a way that doesn't actually clue Peter into the suit's true nature -- because the story is set too early in the continuity for that -- PAD pulls it off. We readers see some of the sinister nature of the suit, but Peter remains oblivious. It works perfectly.

Greg Land's art is great too. Land isn't always great ... but he draws a fantastic black-Spidey-suit.

After that, because this first one was so successful (on account of it being AWESOME), of course there had to be follow-ups. Three more five-issue miniseries followed. There was:

ALIEN REALITY. This one has a story that is just godawful, and reads like PAD was just making sh*t up as he went. I do give it points for finding a way to make the Ned Leeds Hobgoblin the villain. (For those who don't know the backstory, Peter David revealed Ned as the Hobgoblin in a story in 1987 that was hated by everyone but I loved it. Roger Stern, who created the Hobgoblin, eventually went back and did a miniseries, which retconnned PAD's reveal, making Ned Leeds just a deluded crazy guy who THOUGHT he was the Hobgoblin. The real Hobgoblin was some other guy.) Since Symbiote Spidey is in continuity, PAD has to work within the confines of Stern's retcon. Yet he clearly wanted to use HIS Hobgoblin, i.e. Ned Leeds. He finds a way to do it, which doesn't mess with the Stern retcon at all. It's quite brilliant.

But everything else in ALIEN REALITY kinda sucked.

Then came KING IN BLACK, which was meant to tie in to a "symbiote"-related crossover that was going on at the time. Since PAD's story was set in the past, it couldn't really participate in the crossover in a conventional way, but instead tries to act as a prologue to the stuff going on in the contemporary crossover. That aspect of the story works fine, but this one suffers from a ridiculous amount of guest-stars. I think PAD was trying to synergize with the movies coming out at the time set in MCU. Thus, Monica Rambeau is featured (since she was in the Captain Marvel movie), and some continuity from Guardians of the Galaxy shows up, as does a Thor villain ... it's too much. I still enjoyed it, but it was clear by now that PAD was never going to duplicate the perfection of the first mini.

Finally ...

CROSSROADS
Symbiote Spidey goes to the Crossroads dimension, to team up with the Hulk. And also with the Eternals because ... movie synergy! (Ugh) The Hulk was banished to the Crossroads in Incredible Hulk #300, and he stayed there for a whole year, not getting out until issue 313 (the last issue before Byrne took over!). So there was plenty of time for a team-up with Symbiote Spidey. That said, I think there was maybe a continuity boondoggle here, because I think maybe Pete was already out of the alien costume before he appeared in Hulk #300 ... which was, again, the one that sends Hulk to Crossroads.

I could be wrong about that. But I don't really care.

So Peter David was already writing Spidey in an era set JUST before he actually really did start to write Spidey at the time. And with CROSSROADS, he's also able to write an adventure of the Hulk set just a couple years before he started writing the Hulk at the time.

The Hulk stuff is fun, with PAD able to foreshadow stuff that would -- from an internal-continuity perspective -- eventually happen in his own HULK run years and years "later." Also, this mini brings back the Black Cat, who was foolishly left out of ALIEN REALITY and KING IN BLACK. This one ALMOST manages to be a return to form but once again suffers from guest-star bloat. The Eternals appearance is utterly pointless, and there's also a bunch of extraneous villains running around.

That said, while it's not perfect, CROSSROADS is pretty solid. Overall, the 20 issues comprising PAD's Symbiote Spidey are pretty good. And I like that the creative team was kept consistent over all four minis ... not just artist Greg Land, but the colorist and letterer as well. That's pretty impressive in this day and age!

Overall, the Symbiote stuff by PAD was good stuff. Even though only the first one is truly sublime.


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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 5:27 pm 
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SYMBIOTE SPIDER-MAN 2099

Peter David returns to his creation, "Spider-Man but in the future, specifically the year 2099," in an attempt to keep the "Symbiote" brand alive. This time, it's Miguel O'Hara -- again, PAD's original creation, and the Spider-Man of 100 years in the future -- dealing with symbiotes. Is it the same symbiote that first appeared in Amazing Spider-Man 252 in 1984?

I don't know. I haven't read this one. Actually I'm not sure it's even wrapped up yet. But the premise just didn't interest me. Back in 1992, I was hugely excited by PAD's Spidey 2099, and I thought the first ten issues made for a fantastic debut year. But after that, the series got bogged down with crossovers with other series in the 2099 line, and I wasn't reading those. Didn't care about those, didn't like crossover crap trying to extort money out of me by "forcing" me to buy comics I wouldn't normally get. I was a savvy 14 year old, by god! I had read "But I Digress," a column whose author warned audiences not to be manipulated by the Big Two.

Poor PAD -- hoist on thine own petard!

But yeah, so I quit Spidey 2099 back in 1993, after around issue 14 or so. Since then, I don't have huge nostalgia for the character. So I skipped this one.


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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 5:33 pm 
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THE MAESTRO
Back in 1992, Peter David did a Hulk story which posited an apocalyptic future ruled over by the tyrannical "Maestro." He turned out to be ... the HULK!

As PAD's Hulk run continued, it became clear that the Hulk's encounter with his future self, the Maestro, had resulted in an alternate timeline. We now knew that the mainstream Marvel Universe was not heading for the future of "Future Imperfect" ... but that didn't mean that the Hulk's own trajectory might not still lead to some of the same tragedies that the Maestro warned him of. And so it was that little Doot was enraptured by PAD's Hulk for another six years, before he left the series in the summer of 1998.

But what about that "original" timeline, the one that led to the Dystopian future that Hulk visited, the one where he met the Maestro? How EXACTLY did the Hulk come to be the Maestro?

The answer to this was given over a series of three five-issue "MAESTRO" miniseries.

I read the first one. It was awful. Not only was it boring, but it didn't even contain a "Seinfeld" reference. Come on, the Maestro episode is a classic! Too proud to make an allusion to Larry David, Peter David?

Well, maybe there was a Seinfeld joke in the second or third mini. I didn't bother reading those, because the first one was just so crushingly bad. It was boring, with no sense of momentum, and it felt like PAD was just ticking off all the boxes to make sure any reference of the Maestro's past from the original "Future Imperfect" story was explained. But it didn't make any kind of coherent whole. It was just a series of events happening.

I really wanted to like this, because I loved the original "Future Imperfect" so, so much. But this was just a mess. If PAD eventually redeemed himself with the second and third miniseries, I missed out. I was gone after the first one.


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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 5:46 pm 
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THE NEW FANTASTIC FOUR
Walt Simonson and Art Adams did a three-parter in the Fantastic Four in 1990 that was meant as a joke: the FF are defeated and seemingly killed, so a new quartet rises up to avenge them -- Spider-Man, Hulk (the grey version), Wolverine and Ghost Rider. It's clear when you read the story that Simonson is essentially taking the piss. But Art Adams' art was so cool, and we twelve-year-olds were so dumb back then, that we took it all seriously. Finally, the Fantastic Four was COOL.

But in the original story, this quartet don't do much that's really very interesting. Simonson has very little interest in having these four characters interact as a team. It's all just a joke on the whole "hot characters guest star" phenomenon of the time. (That is to say, back in the dizzle, anything that guest-starred Wolverine or the Punisher or Ghost Rider was very attractive to the pre-teen boys in the audience, because those characters were soooo coool.) Simonson was mocking the phenomenon while also exploiting it -- which was brilliant, don't get me wrong. But it meant that basically all the four "hot" characters do is show up. Then they fly to monster island, and Art Adams gets to draw the things he's actually excited to draw: Mole Man and Kirby-monsters.

And the original FF pretty much come back only moments after they "died," rendering the new Fantastic Four completely obsolete immediately ... which was part of the joke.

But we didn't get the gag. One of those rare instances where in order to get the joke, you had to NOT be there at the time.

So thirty years later some of us are still nostalgic for the "New Fantastic Four," and think about what could have been if they actually REALLY tried to do a story about those four characters acting as a team.

So Peter David wrote one!

It's crap.

It's all about some character that PAD creates specifically for the miniseries. And the story is about HIM, not the four new Fantastic Four characters. I don't know if this was PAD's way of continuing the original joke, but if so that completely misses the point. What fans wanted -- or at least what I wanted -- was a story that approached the premise earnestly rather than ironically. Instead, it's more of these four "hot" characters just being largely ineffectual, as they deal with this goofy high-concept character who isn't interesting. Also his "high concept" would be more interesting if it wasn't a complete retread of a story-arc that PAD did for his character "Marlo Chandler" in the CAPTAIN MARVEL series he did in the early oughts. The idea is simply that anything Marlo wished for would happen, but only when she wasn't consciously thinking about her "wish" power. So if she errantly spoke without thinking -- "God, I wish I had a bigger kitchen" -- then bam, bigger kitchen. But if she consciously tried to make something happen by wishing for it, it wouldn't come true. So it was more of a curse -- only the careless, thoughtless, ill-considered wishes would come true. The ones you don't want coming true. Kind of a clever idea. And when it came time to resolve the thread, he just had Marlo say one day, "Life's pretty good these days, if only I didn't have that 'wish' power, it would be even better ..." And voila, her wish came true and the power was gone forevermore. Good stuff!

Anyway, the guy in this New FF mini has pretty much the same deal. The details are slightly different, but it's the same high-concept.

So, a recycled premise and no real mileage gotten out of the novelty of these four characters being teamed up. Despite having a full five issues in which to play!

What a waste.

This one was garbage.


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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 6:00 pm 
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JOE FIXIT
One last PAD one! One last Hulk one!

From issues 347-363 (1988-1989) or thereabouts, the premise of the Hulk was that he was grey and articulate rather than green and mindless. And being a more clever, crafty Hulk -- and with a skin color not quite so glaring -- he was able to get himself a job working as a bodyguard for a casino owner in Las Vegas. His alias: Mr. Fixit, first name "Joe."

It was a nifty era. My very first PAD Hulk comic was issue 348, the second issue of the new status quo. Being a little Doot, I had no idea the status quo was so new. For all I was aware, Hulk could have been working in Vegas for years before I picked up the comic. Only many moons later did I realize that my first "Mr. Fixit" comic was only the second such comic to ever exist.

But I digress.

In Hulk 348, Mr. Fixit fights Spider-Man.

This nostalgia mini, JOE FIXIT, is actually narrated by Spider-Man. This comic could almost have gotten away with giving Spidey a co-headliner credit, because he is a HUGE presence in this one. The idea is that Peter Parker is still in Las Vegas after the events of Hulk 348. And he gets drawn into another Hulk-related scenario before he can get on his plane and go back home.

This suggests a chronology placement very soon after Hulk 348, although I'm not sure that totally works, because I think this actually has to take place after Hulk 354 -- for various and sundry continuity reasons. But that means Peter was in Vegas for six months of Marvel publishing time. In that time, Marvel would have published about 18 individual Spidey issues! I'm not sure this works, but ... eh, 'tis a minor thing, ultimately.

The high concept here is that the Kingpin comes to Vegas. And he's there to challenge Berengetti, the casino owner who employs "Joe Fixit" as his enforcer. This of course leads to Hulk/Kingpin antagonism -- which is quite novel. And of course Spidey decides to stay in Vegas for as long as the Kingpin is there.

The first issue of this mini is actually the best, as it features the Hulk giving a savage beatdown to the Kingpin, while Spider-Man watches, and thinks to himself, "This is the greatest day of my life." I love that moment.

As the mini progresses, there are some really wonderful bits -- including a flashback to a heretofore unrevealed encounter between Spidey and the green, savage Hulk -- and also some gratuitously boring bits. The mini ends with Kingpin bringing in a bunch of supervillains to go after the Hulk, including the Masked Marauder (hey, Daredevil connection!), and Electro (a staple of the Spidey villain-verse, and a favorite of PAD's). The story just ends with a perfunctory fight with a bunch of bad guys who show up at the last minute. This would be fine if there was also some kind of ... character arc, I guess? Maybe something about how when Banner was a teenager, he had Daddy issues? (Just kidding, that would be female.)

I mean, Peter David explored the Hulk's character in depth for 12 years, so when you slot "JOE FIXIT" in there as just a piece of the overall PAD run -- fitting it in where it belongs chronologically -- then that's fine. JOE FIXIT in itself doesn't have to be complete, because the character bits therein will get more detailed and robust exploration in the "future" issues of PAD's Hulk.

That said, I did feel like the final issue was just rote fisticuffs -- and somehow not a satisfying way to pay off the four issues before it, which I quite enjoyed.

Buuuut ... it was still a pretty fun ride. This one got a thumbs-up from me.


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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 6:06 pm 
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STORM
Ann Nocenti writes an X-Men series focused on Storm, and set during the era just before Ann came on as the series editor. A lot of these minis don't actually say *exactly* when they're meant to slot in. They're a bit annoyingly vague in that regard. But in this case, an editor's note actually says that it is meant to take place in between X-Men 175 and X-Men 177. (Only Cyclops and Wolverine appeared in X-Men 176, you see. The other team members were .... well, they were off having an adventure with Storm, as chronicled here for the first time!)

It's cool that they tried to be more precise with the continuity here, but of course they then muck it up. First of all, Wolverine is there. But if this is set during X-Men 176, he should be off in Japan, I'm pretty sure. Also, Nightcrawler is using his image-inducer, which is a total anachronism. He gave that thing up during the early Byrne days of X-Men! Like circa 1978! For him to still be using it in this series, set circa 1983 ... that makes no sense.

But suppose we put aside the continuity, and just enjoy the series on its own merits?

Eh. It's still pretty bad. Nocenti just doesn't get Storm's voice right for this era in the character's evolution. (She had just become punk Storm a few months earlier, in issue 173. -- Delineatin' Doot) And I don't know ... something about her just seems "off."

Also, Mystique is in this, which ... I know I said I wouldn't harp on continuity, but Mystique is the villain in X-Men 177-178, the comics meant to come RIGHT after this mini. The editor explains in a note that the events of the Storm mini are meant to motivate Mystique's actions as we see them play out in X-Men 177 and 178. But then why would she not MENTION the events of this Storm mini? I think it's a really clumsy continuity insert.

As for the plot ... I don't even remember it, to be honest. I just remember it was weird, and didn't work.

This one is a miss.


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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 6:23 pm 
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MAGNETO
J.M. DeMatteis and Todd Nauck give us a miniseries about Magneto, set during his "hero" phase ... specifically just a bit before Claremont's final issue of New Mutants.

So we're in Claremont territory again, as with the Storm mini by Nocenti.

But ah, what a world of difference.

This miniseries is ....simply awesome. I read reviews of this one before buying because I was on the fence ... a lot of people said they didn't like the inner monologue that Matteis gave Magneto, because it didn't fit with Claremont's characterization. That set off alarm bells, but then I realized ... who are these anonymous reviewers to decide that they are authorities on Claremont's characterizations? Did they write a book about Chris Claremont? METHINKS NOT, WITH A VENGEANCE

So I realized I had to read this and decide for myself. And it was SUCH a pleasant surprise.

This one was an absolute joy and delight. DeMatteis' use of continuity is perfect, so let's just address that off the bat. This fits into the era it is supposed to ... seamlessly.

What DeMatteis is trying to do with this series is to reconcile the thoughtful Magneto of Claremont with the histrionic Magneto of the Silver Age. And while it is true that Claremont did already bridge the gap via his brilliant flashback story published in Classic X-Men #19 (Claremont's single greatest X-Men story, I am not joking) .... that tale was more in explaining how it is that Magneto became a villain. Claremont addressed the reasons why a man with good intentions could be corrupted to the point of being a terrorist. But what Claremont has never really addressed (that I can recall) is why Magneto's actual diction changed. When you compare Stan Lee's Magneto to Claremont's Magneto, it isn't just that one is evil and one is sympathetic. It's also that Claremont's Magneto speaks eloquently and thoughtfully, while Lee's Magneto is always raving and ranting like a loon. Claremont has told stories accounting for the change in Magneto's motivations over the years, but what accounts for that change in *voice*?

That's the question out of which DeMatteis spins his four-part adventure. Or was it five parts? I think this one was only four.

As the cover of the very first issue suggests, DeMatteis' story has one foot in the "present" (i.e., 1987 in X-Men continuity) and another one in the Silver Age of the X-Men. The early Lee-Kirby Magneto stories loom very large in this comic, in a way that they really never did in Claremont's stories. Possibly because Claremont never even read those old Lee-Kirby issues? DeMatteis creates a wonderful, clever bridge via this comic.

Another thing that felt like a gift to me, personally, directly from DeMatteis to Doot ... This miniseries also incorporates the "Magneto: Testament" miniseries from circa 2008, written by Greg Pak. Pak's intent was to give a "definitive" account of Magneto's life during the years of the Holocaust, in more detail than had been done previously. In doing so, Pak also gave Magneto his definitively correct "real" name -- Max Eisenhardt. But a lot of post-2008 comics don't seem to ever call him "Max," instead going with the Erik Lenscherr name that someone -- I think Fabian Nicieza -- came up with back in the early 90s.

But I really liked "Magneto: Testament" and I always was annoyed not to see "Max Eisenhardt" properly cemented into canon when I read X-Men comics post-2008.

But DeMatteis ... bless him ... he refers to Magneto as Max Eisenhardt in this miniseries, which I love. So in this series set during the Claremont era, DeMatteis and Nauck create a bridge not only to the Silver Age Magneto that preceded Claremont, but also to the wonderful "origin" comic that Pak wrote post-Claremont. The whole thing is woven together very nicely.

Plus, as a bonus, all nine of the Claremont-era New Mutants appear as supporting characters in this comic, and DeMatteis nails the voice for ALL NINE OF THEM. Since this is a "Magneto" comic, not a "New Mutants" comic, they don't get much to do, but DeMatteis is careful to give each of the nine characters at least a panel or two to at least demonstrate a bit of the unique personality with which Claremont imbued each of them with during his 54 issues of that series. I was really impressed that not a single one of those nine voices sounded "off" to me.

So, in summary, this one was REALLY good. To me, this stands alongside the first Symbiote Spidey mini -- and Nocenti's Longshot two-parter in "Legends" --- as the best of the best of these nostalgia things. Just an absolute joy. Gotta say, the more I read of DeMatteis, the more I like him.


Last edited by Ocean Doot on Mon Mar 31, 2025 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 6:27 pm 
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Ocean Doot wrote:
Beachy wrote:
I keep thinking that a re-imagined series of all of Silver-Age Marvel might be fun.
Sort of how Marvel had an All Ages Spider-Man book that redrew and reworded (slight updates) to the earliest
Amazing Spider-Man comics. In the same way that Thor The Mighty Avenger did the early Journey Into Mystery
characters but updated them into more modern stories.

For example, I keep reading how the modern audience will sometimes buy Silver Age X-Men, but they absolutely
hate it (apart from a couple of Kirby issues, like against the Juggernaut). I think it would be fun to re-do those
early X-Men stories, but make some (probably) radical changes to shake things up. For example, even changing
the sex of one of the original five X-Men might help things. Imagine a female Beast (still the beefy powerhouse
and smart person on the team). Sure, in this age of gender and racial swapping in movies, this would piss people
off, but imagine if it had been that way from the start. Or imagine if the X-Men were always (and early on) going
to get a second (even third) mutation as the story advanced. Angel, for example, could fly. But Warren, for example,
said in a early issue that mutants healed quickly (or something like that). Allow Angel to heal quickly as a second
mutation. Give him the third mutation of being able to heal others later on (but not using his blood or anything like
that which would have been gross in the 1960s). Suddenly, in this age when many heroes fly, Angel doesn't just
appear to be a flying target.

And I still want to rewrite Hank Pym and his villainous cast as a big secret government science project.

The thing is, the stories are essentially the same (or strongly inspired by) the original stories. Just set in the 21st
Century with a lot fewer thought bubbles and exposition.

That would be interesting.

The closest thing I can think of to what you're describing -- at least in terms of attempts that really worked (for me) -- was not in comics, but the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon from 2008. It had a lot of classic villains, and even did some of the classic stories (Master Planner, the Green Goblin saga, the Sinister Six). It also recreated certain classic moments verbatim, like the Spider-Man-buried-under-rubble bit that ended the Master Planner story. And the "Face it, Tiger, you just hit the jackpot!" moment was pretty much completely unaltered from the comics.

But it gave everything a modern spin -- with some of the aesthetic inspired by the Raimi trilogy, which was smart. Granted, they didn't stick to the Silver Age, as you're suggesting. The symbiote/Venom reared his head pretty early on, for example. But a LOT of it was based on the classic Ditko stuff. They also -- since they knew where they were going, already possessed of the blueprint provided by Ditko, Lee, et al -- were able to make fantastic use of foreshadowing. The pilot episode features the Enforcers and the Vulture as the super-villains ... but we also see the seeds planted for villains whose origins would be depicted later. Harry Osborne is in the pilot, as is Otto Octavius ... Curt Connors is there .... and the future Rhino, the future Sandman ... Eddie Brock is possibly in there too, and I think an allusion is made in the pilot to a crimelord called "The Man" (another classic Silver Age story, although "Spectacular" would eventually reveal "The Man" as Tombstone). Just a beautiful lineup of dominos, that are then toppled over the course of the 26 episodes, as one classic Ditko villain after another makes his debut.

I remember watching it thinking, THIS is how the comics should have done their Spider-Man "modernizations." Not the endless talkiness of Bendis' "Ultimate," and not the sheer dreadfulness of "Chapter One." And not the increasingly hacky, poor writing of pretty much every Spider-Man movie after Raimi's first ...

"Spectacular Spider-Man" .... THIS was the adaptation that cracked it.

So yeah ... if they did something like that for the original Silver Age X-Men or Avengers ... or even ... DARE I say his name ... ? ....

I'd be up for it. And also down for it.


Yeah, cartoons (or just a different medium, say radio drama) is probably the best way to do a re-imagine of Silver-Age
Marvel. I've been listening lately to some Doctor Who radio dramas (done around 2010 but featuring the actors from
the 1970s and 1980s returning to their roles in new stories. Quite enjoyable, I've found, and in audio plays / theater of
the mind, it's not hard to imagine them still in their 20s and 30s (and these are just "lost episodes").

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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 6:31 pm 
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ROGUE
Writer Tim Seeley is currently three issues into a five-part mini about Rogue, set in 1990 near the tail end of the Claremont run. It fills in a little continuity gap from near the end of the run: In X-Men 269, Rogue spends a good deal of time stranded alone in the Savage Land, before linking up on the last page with Magneto.

We then don't see either of those two until X-Men 274, at which point Magneto and Rogue are now teamed up with Ka-Zar and some other Savage Land Natives, with a shared agenda to defeat "high priestess Zaladane." We Claremont devotees already knew Zaladane was making trouble in the Savage Land, going all the way back to X-Men 249-250.

But how did Magneto come to make this his business? And after recruiting Rogue to his cause, how did he also come to team up with Ka-Zar? All of that exposition was skipped.

Which brings us to this Rogue mini, which is set explicitly in the gap between X-Men 269 and 274. Plenty of room there for a five-issue miniseries, so that works great!

This one is in progress so I can't say for sure whether it will deliver the goods. I will say I thought the first two issues were VERY promising, although the third one feels like it's starting to stray far afield. For a series that has a built-in Point A and Point B, with is only job being to draw a line between them .... issue 3 sure seemed like Seeley was losing track of the plot.

Buuuuut ... there are still two issues to go.

Hopefully Seeley can deliver the goods. I actually really like Seeley's writing, what I've seen of it. I trust that he can make this work. Possibly I should just wait for issues 4 and 5 to come out ... then go back and just read the entire mini as a single piece. Modern comics are not very good at the serialization thing somehow. Too little story told in each individual chapter, perhaps? (I know that's an old complaint, the "decompression" thing.) Other possibility: Life is too hectic for me to retain memories from month to month of what's going on in these dumb-ass funnybooks. So I really need to read an entire mini all in one sitting in order to get anything out of it, because otherwise I forget what the hell is happening from one month to the next.

Final verdict on this one: TO BE DETERMINED


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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 6:37 pm 
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Beachy wrote:
Ocean Doot wrote:
Beachy wrote:
I keep thinking that a re-imagined series of all of Silver-Age Marvel might be fun.
Sort of how Marvel had an All Ages Spider-Man book that redrew and reworded (slight updates) to the earliest
Amazing Spider-Man comics. In the same way that Thor The Mighty Avenger did the early Journey Into Mystery
characters but updated them into more modern stories.

For example, I keep reading how the modern audience will sometimes buy Silver Age X-Men, but they absolutely
hate it (apart from a couple of Kirby issues, like against the Juggernaut). I think it would be fun to re-do those
early X-Men stories, but make some (probably) radical changes to shake things up. For example, even changing
the sex of one of the original five X-Men might help things. Imagine a female Beast (still the beefy powerhouse
and smart person on the team). Sure, in this age of gender and racial swapping in movies, this would piss people
off, but imagine if it had been that way from the start. Or imagine if the X-Men were always (and early on) going
to get a second (even third) mutation as the story advanced. Angel, for example, could fly. But Warren, for example,
said in a early issue that mutants healed quickly (or something like that). Allow Angel to heal quickly as a second
mutation. Give him the third mutation of being able to heal others later on (but not using his blood or anything like
that which would have been gross in the 1960s). Suddenly, in this age when many heroes fly, Angel doesn't just
appear to be a flying target.

And I still want to rewrite Hank Pym and his villainous cast as a big secret government science project.

The thing is, the stories are essentially the same (or strongly inspired by) the original stories. Just set in the 21st
Century with a lot fewer thought bubbles and exposition.

That would be interesting.

The closest thing I can think of to what you're describing -- at least in terms of attempts that really worked (for me) -- was not in comics, but the Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon from 2008. It had a lot of classic villains, and even did some of the classic stories (Master Planner, the Green Goblin saga, the Sinister Six). It also recreated certain classic moments verbatim, like the Spider-Man-buried-under-rubble bit that ended the Master Planner story. And the "Face it, Tiger, you just hit the jackpot!" moment was pretty much completely unaltered from the comics.

But it gave everything a modern spin -- with some of the aesthetic inspired by the Raimi trilogy, which was smart. Granted, they didn't stick to the Silver Age, as you're suggesting. The symbiote/Venom reared his head pretty early on, for example. But a LOT of it was based on the classic Ditko stuff. They also -- since they knew where they were going, already possessed of the blueprint provided by Ditko, Lee, et al -- were able to make fantastic use of foreshadowing. The pilot episode features the Enforcers and the Vulture as the super-villains ... but we also see the seeds planted for villains whose origins would be depicted later. Harry Osborne is in the pilot, as is Otto Octavius ... Curt Connors is there .... and the future Rhino, the future Sandman ... Eddie Brock is possibly in there too, and I think an allusion is made in the pilot to a crimelord called "The Man" (another classic Silver Age story, although "Spectacular" would eventually reveal "The Man" as Tombstone). Just a beautiful lineup of dominos, that are then toppled over the course of the 26 episodes, as one classic Ditko villain after another makes his debut.

I remember watching it thinking, THIS is how the comics should have done their Spider-Man "modernizations." Not the endless talkiness of Bendis' "Ultimate," and not the sheer dreadfulness of "Chapter One." And not the increasingly hacky, poor writing of pretty much every Spider-Man movie after Raimi's first ...

"Spectacular Spider-Man" .... THIS was the adaptation that cracked it.

So yeah ... if they did something like that for the original Silver Age X-Men or Avengers ... or even ... DARE I say his name ... ? ....

I'd be up for it. And also down for it.


Yeah, cartoons (or just a different medium, say radio drama) is probably the best way to do a re-imagine of Silver-Age
Marvel. I've been listening lately to some Doctor Who radio dramas (done around 2010 but featuring the actors from
the 1970s and 1980s returning to their roles in new stories. Quite enjoyable, I've found, and in audio plays / theater of
the mind, it's not hard to imagine them still in their 20s and 30s (and these are just "lost episodes").

The audio medium definitely has its charms.

I wonder if this would work in the other direction too. Like a comic-book reboot of a Silver Age TV show, a la Batman '66. I know they did a comic-book of that not long ago, but that one was playing into the camp and setting new stories in the familiar aesthetic of the show.

But what about doing "modern" comic-book retellings of .... well, maybe Batman wouldn't work because many of those episodes were adapted from comics in the first place. But, like ... oh, shucks, I guess they're already doing it. "Space Ghost," and "Flintstones" and the like. Old 'Sixties stuff but with a modern sheen.

Damn it, I guess I actually have no new ideas to contribute to this thought experiment.


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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 6:40 pm 
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DAREDEVIL: BLACK ARMOR

Of course, I have not read this one, and I will not.

But I did read Chichester's interview about it -- looking for things to mock, of course.

To be fair to D.G. Chichester, he said in the interview that he deliberately went back and read all of his own comics from the "Black Armor" era, to remind himself of where everybody was at this point in the continuity, what the relationships were, what the status quo was ...

... Even though I don't like his writing, I appreciate that he didn't just say to himself, "Well, I know what those original stories were all about. I'm the one who wrote them!" He had the humility to recognize that his memory might need refreshing.

I don't think Peter David had quite the same meticulousness when doing his minis. He seemed to just rely on his memories of the era. The hubris, by god, the hubris!

And as for Claremont, well ,,,


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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 6:49 pm 
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MADRIPOOR KNIGHTS

DEEP CUT

KITTY AND WOLVERINE

Three minis, all by Claremont, all set during his original run. They seem to be going further back in time. KNIGHTS was set in 1990, DEEP CUT in 1989, and KITTY AND WOLVERINE goes back to 1984.

I guess he's coming up with these on the fly, but perhaps it would have been better to go in the other order. That way, the one set in 1989 could actually reference the events from the one set in 1984, and so on ... and there could be some coherence to these.

But no.

Anyway, KITTY AND WOLVERINE is still in progress or possibly hasn't even started.

But I read preview pages of DEEP CUT and MADRIPOOR KNIGHTS before it. Not terribly interesting. And worse, Claremont just has no memory of his own stuff. Fair enough, I mean the guy is what, eighty? But how about getting an editor on board to read the original comics being referenced, to make sure Claremont doesn't contradict his own stuff?

Just in the few preview pages I read of DEEP CUT, there were continuity problems galore. Claremont forgetting the powers of villains HE created, forgetting what costume Wolverine should be wearing ... I mean, it completely misses the point of the "nostalgia mini" if you're f*cking up your depiction of the era that the audience is nostalgic for?

DEEP CUT, for example, is set just after "Inferno," the big X-crossover that ended in December of 1988. "Inferno" looms huge for me as a fan. I can't even express how important ... it's imprinted on my DNA. One of the musicals I wrote quotes a bit from Inferno directly, and I didn't even notice until after the fact. That text was just IN me -- body and soul, no quarter asked.

So DEEP CUT is for me. It's got the Marauders in it ... the villains from freaking "INFERNO"!!!! But the Marauders are done all wrong. It's all nonsensical, and so what should be nostalgic -- what should be a beautiful evocation of my childhood just feels like a parody of same. And that was the impression I got only from reading four or five preview pages! I think reading the entire five issue mini would have broken me.

Yeah, these Claremont ones ... Just a hard pass. I'd almost rather read "Black Armor."


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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 6:49 pm 
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I think that's all of 'em that I have read.

Thanks for letting me get that out of my system.


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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 8:13 pm 
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Cool thread!

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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 10:12 pm 
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Thank ye! Unfortunately now I'm all outta minis.

Well, two more Rogue issues still to come ...

... and if they ever get Ann Nocenti to do a Daredevil one (which they WILL if there is any JUSTICE in this GODFORSAKEN world ...) I of course will get that one ...

But hey, if anyone else wants to talk about period minis they've read, write 'em up for this thread!


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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 10:58 pm 
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Ocean Doot wrote:
DAREDEVIL: BLACK ARMOR

Of course, I have not read this one, and I will not.

But I did read Chichester's interview about it -- looking for things to mock, of course.

To be fair to D.G. Chichester, he said in the interview that he deliberately went back and read all of his own comics from the "Black Armor" era, to remind himself of where everybody was at this point in the continuity, what the relationships were, what the status quo was ...

... Even though I don't like his writing, I appreciate that he didn't just say to himself, "Well, I know what those original stories were all about. I'm the one who wrote them!" He had the humility to recognize that his memory might need refreshing,


WTF, man. As I was reading this thread, I was getting giddy for the chance to post how much I was eagerly awaiting your review of DD:BA and you undercut me by preemptively mocking it.

I will not forget this.


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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 11:00 pm 
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You know, I've never been a fan of the whole symbiote thing for Spider-Man but I'm tempted to pull the trigger on the minis you mentioned. The PAD I remember writing Spidey could do some good stuff with it.


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 Post subject: Nostalgia Minis!
PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2025 11:02 pm 
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Professor Plum wrote:
Ocean Doot wrote:
DAREDEVIL: BLACK ARMOR

Of course, I have not read this one, and I will not.

But I did read Chichester's interview about it -- looking for things to mock, of course.

To be fair to D.G. Chichester, he said in the interview that he deliberately went back and read all of his own comics from the "Black Armor" era, to remind himself of where everybody was at this point in the continuity, what the relationships were, what the status quo was ...

... Even though I don't like his writing, I appreciate that he didn't just say to himself, "Well, I know what those original stories were all about. I'm the one who wrote them!" He had the humility to recognize that his memory might need refreshing,


WTF, man. As I was reading this thread, I was getting giddy for the chance to post how much I was eagerly awaiting your review of DD:BA and you undercut me by preemptively mocking it.

I will not forget this.

I didn't mock! I was planning to mock, but I did not mock.

But I also did not read.


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