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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:21 am 
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Ancient Alien Theorist

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It’s something I’ve thought about lately as I find myself liking most modern material far less than material made in the past, regardless of the level of craft.

I first noticed it in the criticism of the Image Comics gang – I’ve noticed many of their harshest critics are fans who came up in the Silver and Bronze Age, the fans who cite Neal Adams, George Perez, Frank Frazetta, John Byrne, Barry Windsor-Smith, Bernie Wrightson, Jim Steranko, etc. as the pinnacle of superhero comics artistry.

The funny thing is that the Image founders also list a lot of those guys as their key influences and if you look at when they were born – Todd in 1961, Larsen in ‘62, Lee in ’64, Liefeld in ’67 – they came up at the same timeframe as many of their biggest critics. They were the big stars of their generation but many in their generation rejected them – instead, it’s the kids from the next generation who made them superstars.

And now as a nearly 43-year-old guy, I look at what Marvel and DC puts out and I have to imagine a lot of it is generated by guys roughly my age. And for whatever reason, I don’t connect to the majority of it.

But this goes beyond comics – as far as music, my favorite stuff is the stuff from the late 60s to the early 00s. I like very little of what comes after 2005 (though I am a bit of an old soul, admittedly) but I now realize a lot of that stuff was created by people within my own generation.

If anything, you’d think I’d connect to that art the most, it’s the people who experienced the same cultural and social events and trends that I did growing up. But like many my age, I just find myself thinking, “Bah, the old stuff was mostly better.”

Or am I an outlier? Did I just get old too fast?


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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:56 am 
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From a literary standpoint, the point you raise was the life's work of one of America's foremost scholars of literature (Harold Bloom). His books and scholarly work are about what he calls "influence." He believes almost all great work MUST be understood in view of the influences the creator was under. Shakespeare is a main topic of his work, and he looks at those plays in terms of specifically what Shakespeare (vas you dere?) was following, reading, liking.

It seems we are influenced by the pieces of civilization that are there when we come of age, and forever see the world of creativity through that lens.

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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:59 am 
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Some of the old stuff was better.A lot of it wasn't.Comparing the average current comic book/strip artist to,for example, Alex Raymond,of course the current artist is going to fall short.But,the average comic book/strip artist of Raymond's time would also fall short.
Sturgeon's Law at work.

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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:59 am 
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I am not Taupe

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Interesting question.

I think when I started reading comics as a little kid it was Swans Superman, Dillin/McGlaughlin's JLA and Aparos Batman that were the archetypal comic art for me.

When I got 'into' comics in HS it was Perez, Giffen, Byrne and Simonson who led the way for me. I didnt know if they were new or old, but the books and art and stories were awesome. Discovered Neal Adams in reprints.

In the current era, when I dont read any books, I have a healthy nostalgia for those artist as well as the much older stuff Hanzo has introduced me to in his news strips thread.

Not sure there's an answer here, but nostalgia is comforting for some reason....even when what you are nostalgic for is something you never experienced first hand. Such as Alex Raymond's Rip Kirby, or Art Deco signs on route 66.

I knew you when you were young and idealistic. Hopefully you still are?

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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 12:36 pm 
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Li'l Jay wrote:
It seems we are influenced by the pieces of civilization that are there when we come of age, and forever see the world of creativity through that lens.


This makes sense. It's why I like In Search Of but don't care for the subject matter they covered as an adult. I wouldn't watch a modern version. It's why I like old comics from when I was a kid, etc.

I studied Shakespeare (many years ago) and the prevailing wisdom was that he was somehow 'still our contemporary' (after some 400 years). I think the 'influence' concept explains Shakespeare's continuing prevalence as a 'classic' author. He continues to be taught so his influence continues. Same with Dickens, etc.

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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 3:29 pm 
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Todd wrote:
I knew you when you were young and idealistic. Hopefully you still are?

Me?


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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:00 pm 
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Mr. IMWANKO

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While I am often nostalgic for some of the earliest things in my life (and, oddly for things that pre-date my life), I am less and less
nostalgic for the things that happened since I became an adult.

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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:00 pm 
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Yes! How many years ago was Baltimore comicon and cookout at my place? You were wicked young then...

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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:14 pm 
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Simon wrote:
I studied Shakespeare (many years ago) and the prevailing wisdom was that he was somehow 'still our contemporary' (after some 400 years). I think the 'influence' concept explains Shakespeare's continuing prevalence as a 'classic' author. He continues to be taught so his influence continues. Same with Dickens, etc.


I think that might one of the main points that comes up in the literary criticism of Harold Bloom -- I think he believes the entire Western canon is massively influenced by Shakespeare, and should be read in that way. I know one of his books I read talks about Hamlet as an influence on Milton's Paradise Lost.

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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:14 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Yes! How many years ago was Baltimore comicon and cookout at my place? You were wicked young then...

I'm 42 and about the same level of idealistic, I guess. So not young, lol.


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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:16 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Yes! How many years ago was Baltimore comicon and cookout at my place? You were wicked young then...

I can't remember which year was which, but seems like 2008 was one of those years. I think we did two Baltimores and one Charlotte (at least the meat-ups that were widely attended).

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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:34 pm 
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I am not Taupe

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Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Todd wrote:
Yes! How many years ago was Baltimore comicon and cookout at my place? You were wicked young then...

I'm 42 and about the same level of idealistic, I guess. So not young, lol.


16 years ago you were like 26! Young and idealistic. Glad you are still young and idealistic.

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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 4:38 pm 
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Todd wrote:
16 years ago you were like 26! Young and idealistic. Glad you are still you and idealistic.

And how are you doing lately? Kids are probably all grown by now?

Man, it doesn't feel *that* long ago but I guess it was.


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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 5:22 pm 
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I am not Taupe

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Yup kids all growd up...

Celia 23 in Med School
Jack 22 at Montana State
David 20 at Montana State
Scott 20 at Tennessee

All are doing super well. Moved out of Maryland and have a place in Montana nearish yellowstone and a place in Tennessee (no state taxes). Winter is friggin cold in montana -30 this past Xmas...

time passes very strangely once you are a parent.

:)
T

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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 5:23 pm 
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Li'l Jay wrote:
Todd wrote:
Yes! How many years ago was Baltimore comicon and cookout at my place? You were wicked young then...

I can't remember which year was which, but seems like 2008 was one of those years. I think we did two Baltimores and one Charlotte (at least the meat-ups that were widely attended).

It was the best of times.

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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 6:03 pm 
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Summer of 2012. I remember it well.


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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 11:33 pm 
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Miss Devilhead

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I think that for older things, that were around before I really paid attention, I was a little more inclined to take them at a certain face value and accept them for what they are trying to be. Whereas for newer stuff, I do tend to be more critical, because this is something new and I have a lot to compare it to. Mind you, as I've aged I've gotten less cranky about new things. When I was young I was one of those annoying "the older stuff was better" people. Mostly about music, but also about some other things. At some point as I grew up and looked at things more I did realize that the older stuff just has a filter and some of the really bad stuff from the era is harder to find compared to the nonsense I find today easily. Having said that, I can't quite place my finger on why, but I find the bad older stuff often still holds more interest for me. I can look at it and wonder about the history of it and what lead to it. That's kind of silly and I'm not sure why, but it's true.


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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 6:44 am 
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That make sense, Vicky. I feel the same way about even not-so-good older stuff being more interesting simply because it's from a certain era.

Li'l Jay wrote:
I think that might one of the main points that comes up in the literary criticism of Harold Bloom -- I think he believes the entire Western canon is massively influenced by Shakespeare, and should be read in that way. I know one of his books I read talks about Hamlet as an influence on Milton's Paradise Lost.


Yes, and Bloom has a point. Along with Shakespeare there are a group of authors whose work is so universally taught/studied that their influence is inescapable. Certain novels (Frankenstein, Dracula, The Three Musketeers) have that status, too. You're going to encounter them no matter what so their influence is ever-present.

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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:25 pm 
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Queen Vicky wrote:
I think that for older things, that were around before I really paid attention, I was a little more inclined to take them at a certain face value and accept them for what they are trying to be. Whereas for newer stuff, I do tend to be more critical, because this is something new and I have a lot to compare it to. Mind you, as I've aged I've gotten less cranky about new things. When I was young I was one of those annoying "the older stuff was better" people. Mostly about music, but also about some other things. At some point as I grew up and looked at things more I did realize that the older stuff just has a filter and some of the really bad stuff from the era is harder to find compared to the nonsense I find today easily. Having said that, I can't quite place my finger on why, but I find the bad older stuff often still holds more interest for me. I can look at it and wonder about the history of it and what lead to it. That's kind of silly and I'm not sure why, but it's true.

I can relate to all of that.


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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 3:11 pm 
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Todd wrote:
Moved out of Maryland and have a place in Montana nearish yellowstone and a place in Tennessee (no state taxes). Winter is friggin cold in montana -30 this past Xmas...

Oh wow, I didn't realize you left the state! Did you retire or change jobs?


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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 10:10 am 
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Because they experience it every day?

There are songs that they overplayed on the radio when I was growing up in the 80s. I hated them because I heard them every 30 minutes. Then, after about 10-20 years of not hearing them, I can appreciate them.

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 Post subject: Do People Hate the Art of Their Own Generation?
PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2023 11:26 am 
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An interesting topic to be sure. And I think there's a few distinct issues at play, especially for those of us in a certain demographic.

The first part ties into the influence question. We're all exposed to to the previous generations' art, and usually that art has already survived the test of time by lasting at least 20 years in the public consciousness. So where maybe 200 bands were on the radio, only 20 of them are still referenced un-ironically 20 years later. Artists come and go, and few leave any impression whatsoever at the public level. It's those artists that inspire the next generation. But the challenge becomes artists start out by aping what they liked growing up - Neal Adams' clones, or cover bands, or LoTR fantasy rip offs; kids fall in love with art, and start by trying to do it themselves. The problem is that if they hew too closely to the source, their audience thinks it's derivative; move too far away, and there's no fan overlap and they lose their potential audience. The problem becomes one of being different, but not too different, to create mainstream appeal.

The second part is the commercial exploitation aspect of art - the minute something seems to be popular, there's 3,000 cheap knocks and variations flooding the market. And maybe each of those knock offs becomes someone's personal favourite, but in the main, the public rejects the commercially generated clones, mainly because something feels missing. So people get put off the current art generation (the current big thing) because it feels too much like panning for gold. A lot of effort to find those few nuggets of real value. So if you wait 5-10 years, time will filter a lot of the dross for you.

The next piece - and I think it was ole what's his name who first raised this - is that in general, current generations of artists now know that they can aspire to be commercial artists right from the beginning. so they don't get into the art space because they failed at something else; they can aim at the arts right from the beginning. But that means that in a lot of ways, the artists have no connection to the real world, and their only frame of reference for their art is previous generations' art. I found this especially impactful in the Science Fiction field, as the real world accomplishments of the Golden Age science fiction authors actually dwarf the impact of their art. But it's probably been most detrimental in the world of professional wrestling, as the current generation of talent and fans have disassociated the art form from reality. Side note - you can also see this trend in politics now, which is a scary UNWAN topic all on its own.

and the last piece - for now at least - is the fracturing of the art market and the art audience into different tribes means that for every sub-group of the current generation that loves an artists, 3 or 4 other subgroups despise it; no one market (except 12-14 year old girls, maybe) are big enough to form a majority and thus allow an artist to be "Loved by their own generation". This is most easily seen in music and books. It's been close to 40 years since the Billboard hot 100 has been truly representative of popular music; in books not only did genre fiction split between sci fi and fantasy, but sub-divided into subgenres again. And don't get me started on the wars between all of the extreme metal subgenres and gatekeeping that goes with it.

So add all that up, and you're left with it being very difficult for artists to be appreciated in their own generation, and the need for some time, distance, and context to truly appreciate their talent - or lack of it.

My $0.02


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