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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2022 9:54 pm 
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Jason Michael wrote:
He was excellent, particularly when he inked and lettered his pages..

Yes he was. And he could do them all great too.

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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 5:45 pm 
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Beachy wrote:
I don't think I have much zeroed on one or two "best" small sequence of comics in my life. I've always been more of a "enjoy the run as whole or not" sort of reader.

When it comes to most Bronze Age and earlier content, I'm on the same page. This is why these kinds of lists are difficult for me.

For example, I really love the Weisinger / Swan / Hamilton / Binder era of Superman and there are some really good stand-alone issues, but it's really the material collectively that makes it great. There's not one I can pull out that I feel is far and away the best one, it's just a continuum of enjoyable stories and ideas.

Even with the great stand-out stories, the context of the greater run is important. When I first read both Dark Phoenix and Judas Contract, I read them as stand-alone trades -- and both were the first of those series I ever read -- so the death of Jean Grey and the betrayal of Terra just didn't have any real impact on me. I was able to enjoy them quite a bit, but the emotional resonance needed to make them a "best" story wasn't there for me at the time.


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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 5:47 pm 
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Allen Berrebbi wrote:
Jason Michael wrote:
I loved the Haney/Aparo Brave and Bolds. They were so much fun.
The short run of Detective Comics that was edited by Archie Goodwin (not coincidentally featuring Goodwin and Simonson's excellent Manhunter backups) was very strong. One issue had an Alex Toth/ Goodwin tale that's a little masterpiece.

The older I get, the more I love Aparo!

He's tremendous when you consider the large volume of work he created on a tight time frame over decades. He's like John Buscema in that way.

It always irks me when fans will compare those guys against a Neal Adams or a Barry Smith and don't factor in that the output of guys like Aparo and Buscema are so much larger that they really can't be judged the same way.


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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 5:50 pm 
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Allen Berrebbi wrote:
For the Man Who Has Everything. Only issue was the demonizing of Jor-El.

Ah, but you've got to remember it's not actually Jor-El in that story, it's an imaginary version created by Superman's subconscious mind designed to shock him out of the stupor of the Black Mercy.


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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 5:53 pm 
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Li'l Jay wrote:
How did they talk themselves out of including Watchmen? I can't figure out why the criteria exluded them.

It looks like they're all stories featuring the main DC superheroes. It didn't have V for Vendetta either.


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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 5:59 pm 
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Jason Michael wrote:
Here is the list, for those smart enough to not click on the link (but not smart enough to skip my post!):

10. Whatever Happened To the Man of Tomorrow?
9. The Return of Barry Allen
8. The Judas Contract
7. Sinestro Corps War
6. The Dark Knight Returns
5. The New Frontier
4. All-Star Superman
3. The Great Darkness Saga
2. Crisis On Infinite Earths
1. Kingdom Come

I don't think this is a horrible list, TBH. I don't know that these are the best stories DC ever did, but I do think it's a reasonably good list of 80s-and-later era superhero comics for people who are unfamiliar with the DCU and want to jump in. While I do greatly enjoy Golden and Silver Age comics, I do think they wouldn't be appealing to the modern audience or anyone looking for recommendations from a list like this.

I personally would count The Dark Knight Returns, New Frontier, and All Star Superman as some of my favorite stories featuring the main DC superheroes, absolutely. I also enjoyed Whatever, Return of Barry Allen, Judas Contract, and Kingdom Come.

Never read Sinestro Corps War or Great Darkness Saga and it's not on my reading list.

The only one I think is iffy (and it's weird it's so high) is Crisis on Infinite Earths. The art is mind-blowing, absolutely, but the story just seems like a nerdy Easter egg hunt for super geeks. I don't know that you can really hold it up as some great work, especially one that a newbie should put on their list.


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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 6:34 pm 
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Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Li'l Jay wrote:
How did they talk themselves out of including Watchmen? I can't figure out why the criteria exluded them.

It looks like they're all stories featuring the main DC superheroes. It didn't have V for Vendetta either.


I haven't really been looking at this thread, so I wasn't paying attention. but this post finally got me to look at the actual list. and i'm with Hanzo's latest post; for a random internet list, this could be a lot worse. I mean, I've read and enjoyed all of them, so that's a win. There's nothing earlier than the Great Darkness Saga, so there's nothing from the 70s at all, and no stand alone issues at all. So it's missing a lot of what it truly takes to be a great comic. But there's also none of the "this issue really matters" storytelling, either, and no edgelord grimdark crap, so yay that.

I have to think they just focused on the actual DCU superheroes - so no Vertigo, no Watchmen, no V for Vendetta, no horror, no war. So they weren't looking for truly unique storytelling. and it definitely shows the audience of people responding to a poll from Games Radar, so there's a lot of self-selection bias here. And a massive load of nominees missing as a result.

But the big thing that really jumps out at me about this list though is how self-referential almost everything on it is. If you'd never read a single DC comic in your life, say, and had only seen the movies, it's only The Judas Contract - and to a lesser extent, the LSH - that I think would have any emotional impact as an actual story. So much of the emotional impact of the other 8 depends on the audience being intimately familiar with the DCU, its characters, and its history. So they are all brilliantly crafted DC comics, (well, Sinestro is kind of iffy), but not something that makes you understand why these characters matter as much as they do.

oh, and as for number 7, to quote one of my favourite philosophers "war does not make one great"


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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2023 6:37 pm 
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I don't know why no one has pointed this out yet, but it seems like the list only includes stories featuring the main DC superheroes, which is why stuff like Watchmen was not included.


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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:11 am 
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Ocean Doot wrote:
I don't know why no one has pointed this out yet, but it seems like the list only includes stories featuring the main DC superheroes, which is why stuff like Watchmen was not included.

That said, no matter what criteria was used, the fact that my beloved Sandman was excluded is unconscionable. Now if you'll excuse me, I need to go apply some guy-liner.

Take your time.


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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:15 am 
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Junkie Luv wrote:
At least The Killing Joke wasn't included!

That's actually very surprising! I love Alan Moore but feel that it's one of his lesser works and a bit overrated. The Brian Bolland art is what makes it a stand-out for me.


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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 11:19 am 
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Jason Gore wrote:
But the big thing that really jumps out at me about this list though is how self-referential almost everything on it is. If you'd never read a single DC comic in your life, say, and had only seen the movies, it's only The Judas Contract - and to a lesser extent, the LSH - that I think would have any emotional impact as an actual story. So much of the emotional impact of the other 8 depends on the audience being intimately familiar with the DCU, its characters, and its history. So they are all brilliantly crafted DC comics, (well, Sinestro is kind of iffy), but not something that makes you understand why these characters matter as much as they do.

I haven't read The Great Darkness Saga, but I've heard a lot of it is based on the Darkseid reveal -- if that's the case, wouldn't someone have to know or care about Darkseid for it to have any impact?

I'll have to disagree with you on the Superman and Batman stories on the list -- I think those characters and their overall mythology are famous enough in popular media that anyone inclined to read a graphic novel with them would have enough familiarity with them for those stories to have impact.

I'd also disagree on New Frontier -- I think that it's like Watchmen, you have everything you need in the story itself to get involved with it and it has the added bonus of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and maybe even the Flash being famous enough in other media that a new reader would have some familiarity going in.

I think the key thing to remember is that we're not talking about all new readers, just new readers interested enough to seek out superhero comics. My grandma would be lost with any of these, absolutely, but my wife's teenage cousin who watches every superhero movie and a good chunk of shows probably would get invested in at least a few of these stories.


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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 12:01 pm 
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Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Allen Berrebbi wrote:
Jason Michael wrote:
I loved the Haney/Aparo Brave and Bolds. They were so much fun.
The short run of Detective Comics that was edited by Archie Goodwin (not coincidentally featuring Goodwin and Simonson's excellent Manhunter backups) was very strong. One issue had an Alex Toth/ Goodwin tale that's a little masterpiece.

The older I get, the more I love Aparo!

He's tremendous when you consider the large volume of work he created on a tight time frame over decades. He's like John Buscema in that way.

It always irks me when fans will compare those guys against a Neal Adams or a Barry Smith and don't factor in that the output of guys like Aparo and Buscema are so much larger that they really can't be judged the same way.


Agree. He was such a great artist who did the work. I'm sure if he took his time he could have been even better but what he did, with the volume of work, was amazing!

Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Allen Berrebbi wrote:
For the Man Who Has Everything. Only issue was the demonizing of Jor-El.

Ah, but you've got to remember it's not actually Jor-El in that story, it's an imaginary version created by Superman's subconscious mind designed to shock him out of the stupor of the Black Mercy.


True, still off-putting and made it less of a tragedy when he had to wake up. It literally should have been paradise, at least until he was waking up, like the implied dream of Batman marrying Kathy etc.

Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Junkie Luv wrote:
At least The Killing Joke wasn't included!

That's actually very surprising! I love Alan Moore but feel that it's one of his lesser works and a bit overrated. The Brian Bolland art is what makes it a stand-out for me.


Agree. Even Alan himself hated this story. Ending was awful, and such an ugly story, saved by incredible art.

Hanzo the Razor wrote:
I haven't read The Great Darkness Saga, but I've heard a lot of it is based on the Darkseid reveal -- if that's the case, wouldn't someone have to know or care about Darkseid for it to have any impact?


I remember very clearly being on pins and needles waiting for the next issue of the Great Darkness Saga.

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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 1:59 pm 
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Allen Berrebbi wrote:
Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Allen Berrebbi wrote:
For the Man Who Has Everything. Only issue was the demonizing of Jor-El.

Ah, but you've got to remember it's not actually Jor-El in that story, it's an imaginary version created by Superman's subconscious mind designed to shock him out of the stupor of the Black Mercy.

True, still off-putting and made it less of a tragedy when he had to wake up. It literally should have been paradise, at least until he was waking up, like the implied dream of Batman marrying Kathy etc.

But that wasn't the point of the story, that it's a tragedy Superman lost his fantasy world. The point was that people regret the lives they could have had if circumstances were different, but never consider that their lives might not actually be what they think they will had those circumstances lined up to their desires.


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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:25 pm 
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Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Allen Berrebbi wrote:
Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Allen Berrebbi wrote:
For the Man Who Has Everything. Only issue was the demonizing of Jor-El.

Ah, but you've got to remember it's not actually Jor-El in that story, it's an imaginary version created by Superman's subconscious mind designed to shock him out of the stupor of the Black Mercy.

True, still off-putting and made it less of a tragedy when he had to wake up. It literally should have been paradise, at least until he was waking up, like the implied dream of Batman marrying Kathy etc.

But that wasn't the point of the story, that it's a tragedy Superman lost his fantasy world. The point was that people regret the lives they could have had if circumstances were different, but never consider that their lives might not actually be what they think they will had those circumstances lined up to their desires.


But as a torture device, it worked better if it was a paradise, something he would never want to leave.

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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 2:46 pm 
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Hanzo the Razor wrote:
I haven't read The Great Darkness Saga, but I've heard a lot of it is based on the Darkseid reveal -- if that's the case, wouldn't someone have to know or care about Darkseid for it to have any impact?

I'll have to disagree with you on the Superman and Batman stories on the list -- I think those characters and their overall mythology are famous enough in popular media that anyone inclined to read a graphic novel with them would have enough familiarity with them for those stories to have impact.

I'd also disagree on New Frontier -- I think that it's like Watchmen, you have everything you need in the story itself to get involved with it and it has the added bonus of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and maybe even the Flash being famous enough in other media that a new reader would have some familiarity going in.

I think the key thing to remember is that we're not talking about all new readers, just new readers interested enough to seek out superhero comics. My grandma would be lost with any of these, absolutely, but my wife's teenage cousin who watches every superhero movie and a good chunk of shows probably would get invested in at least a few of these stories.

The thing I remember most about the first time I read the GDS as a kid was "who the hell is this guy?!! He wrecks the Legion, and I've never heard of him? WoW!! And the fall out from it lasted until Crisis killed the Legion. At the time, I didn't know who Darkseid was (isolated, I know), but it didn't impact the story for me. Now, I certainly would have recognized Orion from the jump, and that would have lessened the reveal, but still been a great story because of the impact it had on our heroes..

I can concede the point that Batman and Superman are enough of the common mythos that people could pick them up cold. I'm less familiar with A-SS than I am DKR, but remember people raving about it's return to a more traditional mind set about Superman, who'd been through some rough times. And I'd be an idiot to deny the broad cultural impact of the Dark Knight Returns.

I love NF - it's probably my go to for the last great superhero comic I read. So maybe I can't look at it objectively, because of the artistry of how Cooke rewove all these existing threads into a wonderful new tapestry. But the threads all existed (to the point of Adam in a nuclear explosion over Canaveral, even) It's a love letter to something lost (the Silver Age) and couldn't really exist had the object of affection never existed. I also certainly couldn't recommend using NF as a gateway comic (same as with Astro City) since it is not representative of the current state of Comics.

Of the list, the Sinestro Corps War is probably the most representative of modern DC, and DKR / Y1 is certainly the foundation of Batman ever since they were published.


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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:05 pm 
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Allen Berrebbi wrote:
Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Allen Berrebbi wrote:
Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Allen Berrebbi wrote:
For the Man Who Has Everything. Only issue was the demonizing of Jor-El.

Ah, but you've got to remember it's not actually Jor-El in that story, it's an imaginary version created by Superman's subconscious mind designed to shock him out of the stupor of the Black Mercy.

True, still off-putting and made it less of a tragedy when he had to wake up. It literally should have been paradise, at least until he was waking up, like the implied dream of Batman marrying Kathy etc.

But that wasn't the point of the story, that it's a tragedy Superman lost his fantasy world. The point was that people regret the lives they could have had if circumstances were different, but never consider that their lives might not actually be what they think they will had those circumstances lined up to their desires.


But as a torture device, it worked better if it was a paradise, something he would never want to leave.

My understanding of the Black Mercy was that it was a mental paradise that everyone would actively resist leaving, thereby allowing the Mercy to feed on victims until they died. But it wasn't a torture device, it was a honeypot with a built in sopporific to keep the victim from panicking. And that it was only in its perfection that it failed, by forcing Superman to accept that it wasn't real. The Torture aspect of it only comes after he leaves, effectively having been cast out of paradise.

Although I may be getting confused between the animated DCU, and the comic, since I don't think I've read the comic in 20 years.


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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:18 pm 
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Jason Gore wrote:
Allen Berrebbi wrote:
Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Allen Berrebbi wrote:
Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Allen Berrebbi wrote:
For the Man Who Has Everything. Only issue was the demonizing of Jor-El.

Ah, but you've got to remember it's not actually Jor-El in that story, it's an imaginary version created by Superman's subconscious mind designed to shock him out of the stupor of the Black Mercy.

True, still off-putting and made it less of a tragedy when he had to wake up. It literally should have been paradise, at least until he was waking up, like the implied dream of Batman marrying Kathy etc.

But that wasn't the point of the story, that it's a tragedy Superman lost his fantasy world. The point was that people regret the lives they could have had if circumstances were different, but never consider that their lives might not actually be what they think they will had those circumstances lined up to their desires.


But as a torture device, it worked better if it was a paradise, something he would never want to leave.

My understanding of the Black Mercy was that it was a mental paradise that everyone would actively resist leaving, thereby allowing the Mercy to feed on victims until they died. But it wasn't a torture device, it was a honeypot with a built in sopporific to keep the victim from panicking. And that it was only in its perfection that it failed, by forcing Superman to accept that it wasn't real. The Torture aspect of it only comes after he leaves, effectively having been cast out of paradise.

Although I may be getting confused between the animated DCU, and the comic, since I don't think I've read the comic in 20 years.

But then the point stands, because the vision Superman experienced wasn't perfect. His utopian Krypton actually kinda sucked, and Jor-El being a jerk was part of that suckage.


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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 3:26 pm 
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Hanzo the Razor wrote:
I'd also disagree on New Frontier -- I think that it's like Watchmen, you have everything you need in the story itself to get involved with it and it has the added bonus of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and maybe even the Flash being famous enough in other media that a new reader would have some familiarity going in.
.

I don't think that's true of New Frontier at all. I found most of the characters to be not adequately fleshed out within the story. The only ones I cared about were ones I knew, where as characters I didn't -- like Rick Flagg -- just felt like cyphers to me.

It was John Byrne's "Generations" done wrong. There' I've said it.


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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 10:48 pm 
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Jason Gore wrote:
The thing I remember most about the first time I read the GDS as a kid was "who the hell is this guy?!! He wrecks the Legion, and I've never heard of him? WoW!! And the fall out from it lasted until Crisis killed the Legion. At the time, I didn't know who Darkseid was (isolated, I know), but it didn't impact the story for me. Now, I certainly would have recognized Orion from the jump, and that would have lessened the reveal, but still been a great story because of the impact it had on our heroes..
That was the beauty and power of it for me too.


Jason Gore wrote:
Allen Berrebbi wrote:
Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Allen Berrebbi wrote:
Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Allen Berrebbi wrote:
For the Man Who Has Everything. Only issue was the demonizing of Jor-El.

Ah, but you've got to remember it's not actually Jor-El in that story, it's an imaginary version created by Superman's subconscious mind designed to shock him out of the stupor of the Black Mercy.

True, still off-putting and made it less of a tragedy when he had to wake up. It literally should have been paradise, at least until he was waking up, like the implied dream of Batman marrying Kathy etc.

But that wasn't the point of the story, that it's a tragedy Superman lost his fantasy world. The point was that people regret the lives they could have had if circumstances were different, but never consider that their lives might not actually be what they think they will had those circumstances lined up to their desires.


But as a torture device, it worked better if it was a paradise, something he would never want to leave.

My understanding of the Black Mercy was that it was a mental paradise that everyone would actively resist leaving, thereby allowing the Mercy to feed on victims until they died. But it wasn't a torture device, it was a honeypot with a built in sopporific to keep the victim from panicking. And that it was only in its perfection that it failed, by forcing Superman to accept that it wasn't real. The Torture aspect of it only comes after he leaves, effectively having been cast out of paradise.

Although I may be getting confused between the animated DCU, and the comic, since I don't think I've read the comic in 20 years.


Right so if it's not something he would hate leaving, its no big deal. Batman had a more accurate dream

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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 10:58 pm 
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Ocean Doot wrote:
I don't think that's true of New Frontier at all. I found most of the characters to be not adequately fleshed out within the story. The only ones I cared about were ones I knew, where as characters I didn't -- like Rick Flagg -- just felt like cyphers to me.

It was John Byrne's "Generations" done wrong. There' I've said it.


Doot goin' breakin' my heart.


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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:21 am 
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Professor Plum wrote:
Ocean Doot wrote:
I don't think that's true of New Frontier at all. I found most of the characters to be not adequately fleshed out within the story. The only ones I cared about were ones I knew, where as characters I didn't -- like Rick Flagg -- just felt like cyphers to me.

It was John Byrne's "Generations" done wrong. There' I've said it.


Doot goin' breakin' my heart.

IMWAN goin breakin' your heart....


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 Post subject: Best DC Comics according to the "experts" at Games Radar
PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2023 11:14 am 
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Ocean Doot wrote:
Hanzo the Razor wrote:
I'd also disagree on New Frontier -- I think that it's like Watchmen, you have everything you need in the story itself to get involved with it and it has the added bonus of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and maybe even the Flash being famous enough in other media that a new reader would have some familiarity going in.

I don't think that's true of New Frontier at all. I found most of the characters to be not adequately fleshed out within the story. The only ones I cared about were ones I knew, where as characters I didn't -- like Rick Flagg -- just felt like cyphers to me.

Image

It's tough to really know since we both have a greater familiarity with these superheroes than any new reader. That said, I think the two characters intended as the main characters, Hal Jordan and Martian Manhunter, are fleshed out enough for my tastes and the purposes of this story.

Many of the side / supporting characters like Rick Flagg don't really need to be much more than a cyphers, IMO. I don't think a reader needs to feel emotionally invested in every character, just the main ones. This is a massive cast and the book already boasts a large page count... I think devoting time to fleshing out characters who aren't the principals would likely result in the book feeling too long and perhaps even creating a sense of tedium (unless the writing is absolutely brilliant to the point where you can't get enough).

That said, I also know my tastes and the tastes of the majority aren't the same. I think one of the main reasons I've been enjoying 30s-40s comic strips so much is that there isn't a lot of focus on developing and fleshing out characters. They're often broad types that serve a very practical function within the greater plot. The only real characterization used most of the time is giving them a distinctive appearance or speech pattern or some such. The hero is usually brave, chivalrous, and prone to wisecracks. The villain shows up, he's evil and wants to do evil things, and that's about it. The motivations are broad and universal -- he wants money and power, he wants the hero's girl, he wants to rule a nation, etc. The girlfriend is stereotypically feminine, but still brave, honest, and loyal to the hero. The femme fatale is selfish, vain, and hopelessly in love with the hero (who is too pure to hook up, natch). And so on. I like that we know the basic types and can just move on with the adventure plot -- let's get to the exotic locales, breakneck action, and goofy weirdness as soon as we can, thanks.

But I'm curious to learn more about your perspective. What more did you need to know about Rick Flagg that wasn't provided in the story?


Ocean Doot wrote:
It was John Byrne's "Generations" done wrong. There' I've said it.

Aren't they all?


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