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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 1:54 pm 
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Other that some of the most amazing covers by Romita Sr, upon re-reading this run, find him to very overrated. Some high points but some really bad ones too. The Clone Saga, which should have come later, lacked the emotional punch it should have had, and a terrible ending. Plus he got over Gwen way too quickly and easily (except for the odd mention here and there).

And even if you wanted it to be a final goodbye to Gwen, there were some moments that could have been real cathartic, like explaining to the clone how her dad died, maybe even reveal his ID so she finally understood why he kept disappearing. Just very immature writing.

It also was responsible for the Punisher, who in some ways, is very different than today.

I do find greater appreciation for Andru's art as I get older

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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:29 pm 
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Conway was 19 when he took over Spider-Man and killed off Gwen.

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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 2:36 pm 
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Yeah, I really disliked a lot of Conway's writing until I found out how young he was. I still disliked IT but didn't dislike HIM as much. And he did find the character's voices pretty well, imo. Just awful understanding of what made them tick.


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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 4:26 pm 
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Marcus wrote:
Conway was 19 when he took over Spider-Man and killed off Gwen.

That's kind of insane when you think about it. They let some kid just out of high school write their most important title.


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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 5:00 pm 
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But Firestorm, tho

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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:12 pm 
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He wrote EVERY IMPORTANT MARVEL TITLE - Avengers,Spidey, Thor, Fantastic Four - when he was 20 or so. That is ridiculous. And he fucked them all up. Which is also pretty ridiculous, Firestorm or no.


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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:15 pm 
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What about Firestorm?

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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 6:59 pm 
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I'm not going to change anyone's mind, but: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man was great. One of the best Spider-Man runs ever. You're all wrong.

A few points: It was as much Romita's idea to kill Gwen as it was Conway's. The two of them co-plotted during the time that Romita was the artist (Romita even received top billing over Conway). Even though Romita stopped drawing the book the issue before Gwen died, he still was inking and still was co-plotting. Killing Gwen was a good idea, as the relationship was boring and stale. There was only one Gwen subplot: Peter is worried Gwen is going to dump him because he saw her at a coffee shop with another guy. They'd repeated that one literally a half-dozen times. Then they introduced the "Gwen hates Spider-Man" concept as a contrivance to keep them apart. They were going in circles. The death story was extremely well-done and still brings a tear to my eye. Mary Jane was a more interesting character, and the way Conway developed their relationship gradually was exceptional and realistic. I don't think Peter got over Gwen's death too easily... it was a couple years of grieving and moaning about it before he started to move on.

Since Romita was still on board when Conway took over, giving the job to a 19-year-old was not as big a deal as it seems. Romita had been in the driver's seat when Stan was doing the book, and so he remained when Conway took over, at least at first. Romita is generally not given enough credit for his writing work on Spider-Man. He was doing a major part of the writing during the "Stan Lee" years.

The clone saga stemmed from the fact that Stan Lee ordered Conway to bring back Gwen, because he (Stan) was getting yelled at by fanboys at his various college speaking engagements, and he wound up telling an audience Gwen would be coming back. So Conway was stuck with that. The clone saga was a classic case of getting stuck with lemons and making lemonade.


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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:02 pm 
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Jason Michael wrote:
What about Firestorm?


Childhood favorite of mine. Conway co-created the character and wrote most of the 80's run.

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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:04 pm 
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Evans wrote:
He wrote EVERY IMPORTANT MARVEL TITLE - Avengers,Spidey, Thor, Fantastic Four - when he was 20 or so. That is ridiculous. And he fucked them all up. Which is also pretty ridiculous, Firestorm or no.

HIs Daredevil stuff isn't too bad. I'd say it's way better than the next couple guys who followed him.


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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:28 pm 
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Ocean Doot wrote:
Evans wrote:
He wrote EVERY IMPORTANT MARVEL TITLE - Avengers,Spidey, Thor, Fantastic Four - when he was 20 or so. That is ridiculous. And he fucked them all up. Which is also pretty ridiculous, Firestorm or no.

HIs Daredevil stuff isn't too bad. I'd say it's way better than the next couple guys who followed him.


I don't think you should shoot off at the mouth until you've read a good bit of Daredevil.

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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2022 9:36 pm 
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Li'l Jay wrote:
Ocean Doot wrote:
Evans wrote:
He wrote EVERY IMPORTANT MARVEL TITLE - Avengers,Spidey, Thor, Fantastic Four - when he was 20 or so. That is ridiculous. And he fucked them all up. Which is also pretty ridiculous, Firestorm or no.

HIs Daredevil stuff isn't too bad. I'd say it's way better than the next couple guys who followed him.


I don't think you should shoot off at the mouth until you've read a good bit of Daredevil.

I've read most of Wild Cards and X-Men, which I think are both similar enough to Daredevil for me to get the basic gist.


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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 7:04 am 
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Jason Czeskleba wrote:
I'm not going to change anyone's mind, but: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man was great. One of the best Spider-Man runs ever. You're all wrong.

A few points: It was as much Romita's idea to kill Gwen as it was Conway's. The two of them co-plotted during the time that Romita was the artist (Romita even received top billing over Conway). Even though Romita stopped drawing the book the issue before Gwen died, he still was inking and still was co-plotting. Killing Gwen was a good idea, as the relationship was boring and stale. There was only one Gwen subplot: Peter is worried Gwen is going to dump him because he saw her at a coffee shop with another guy. They'd repeated that one literally a half-dozen times. Then they introduced the "Gwen hates Spider-Man" concept as a contrivance to keep them apart. They were going in circles. The death story was extremely well-done and still brings a tear to my eye. Mary Jane was a more interesting character, and the way Conway developed their relationship gradually was exceptional and realistic. I don't think Peter got over Gwen's death too easily... it was a couple years of grieving and moaning about it before he started to move on.

Since Romita was still on board when Conway took over, giving the job to a 19-year-old was not as big a deal as it seems. Romita had been in the driver's seat when Stan was doing the book, and so he remained when Conway took over, at least at first. Romita is generally not given enough credit for his writing work on Spider-Man. He was doing a major part of the writing during the "Stan Lee" years.

The clone saga stemmed from the fact that Stan Lee ordered Conway to bring back Gwen, because he (Stan) was getting yelled at by fanboys at his various college speaking engagements, and he wound up telling an audience Gwen would be coming back. So Conway was stuck with that. The clone saga was a classic case of getting stuck with lemons and making lemonade.


I agree. It was.Romita's idea to kill off Gwen and Spidey's supporting cast was important and well done.

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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 8:07 am 
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I liked Conway's Amazing Spider-Man run, and he does get too much flack for killing Gwen even though (as said below it was Romita's decision).

Given he was only 19 it still seems that Romita and later Lee (with the Clone Saga) were calling the shots to an extent. They kill off the Green Goblin and Gwen and within 2 years find ways to bring them back. Harry's story could be seen as a natural progression, but the Clone Saga felt forced. Conway did the best he could. The Harry / Green Goblin story comes off better. The Clone Saga and the Jackal should have been left at the bottom of that incinerator.

Then again, Bill Mantlo revisited the Clone Saga with Carrion, and Conway in his Spectacular run addressed the Miles Warren and Gwen clones (although his solution was undone later), and

Terry "One of the Worst Marvel Writers" Kavanagh was the one that really is to blame for that mess by bringing it all back in to play and thinking Conway had left any ambiguity as to whether it was the real Peter or the clone that lived at the end of issue 149.

Conway did have good voice for all the supporting cast especially JJJ, Aunt May and then Mary Jane. Some of his characters and concepts really worked and thrived The Punisher, Tarantula and Hammerhead. Others were DOA; Grizzly, Mindworm and Cyclone.

Do we want thoughts on his Spectacular and Web runs?

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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:24 am 
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Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Conway was 19 when he took over Spider-Man and killed off Gwen.

That's kind of insane when you think about it. They let some kid just out of high school write their most important title.

That was my thought too! Who gives a 19-year old the keys to their flagship character? :lol:


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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 11:13 am 
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Junkie Luv wrote:
Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Conway was 19 when he took over Spider-Man and killed off Gwen.

That's kind of insane when you think about it. They let some kid just out of high school write their most important title.

That was my thought too! Who gives a 19-year old the keys to their flagship character? :lol:


Yeah that was crazy

Evans wrote:
Yeah, I really disliked a lot of Conway's writing until I found out how young he was. I still disliked IT but didn't dislike HIM as much. And he did find the character's voices pretty well, imo. Just awful understanding of what made them tick.


Forgot about his age and now it makes more sense why he lacked the depth and nuance.

Evans wrote:
He wrote EVERY IMPORTANT MARVEL TITLE - Avengers,Spidey, Thor, Fantastic Four - when he was 20 or so. That is ridiculous. And he fucked them all up. Which is also pretty ridiculous, Firestorm or no.


What were they thinking?

Jason Czeskleba wrote:
I'm not going to change anyone's mind, but: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man was great. One of the best Spider-Man runs ever. You're all wrong.

A few points: It was as much Romita's idea to kill Gwen as it was Conway's. The two of them co-plotted during the time that Romita was the artist (Romita even received top billing over Conway). Even though Romita stopped drawing the book the issue before Gwen died, he still was inking and still was co-plotting. Killing Gwen was a good idea, as the relationship was boring and stale. There was only one Gwen subplot: Peter is worried Gwen is going to dump him because he saw her at a coffee shop with another guy. They'd repeated that one literally a half-dozen times. Then they introduced the "Gwen hates Spider-Man" concept as a contrivance to keep them apart. They were going in circles. The death story was extremely well-done and still brings a tear to my eye. Mary Jane was a more interesting character, and the way Conway developed their relationship gradually was exceptional and realistic. I don't think Peter got over Gwen's death too easily... it was a couple years of grieving and moaning about it before he started to move on.


I agree Gwen's death was not his fault alone, and to be honest, they wrote her pretty poorly for a few years already. They had no idea what to do with her, And yes MJ was becoming interesting but again, they kept going back and forth with her. But no, reading it now, the grief that should have been there was not. And yes, at the time, I shed a tear too.

Quote:
Since Romita was still on board when Conway took over, giving the job to a 19-year-old was not as big a deal as it seems. Romita had been in the driver's seat when Stan was doing the book, and so he remained when Conway took over, at least at first. Romita is generally not given enough credit for his writing work on Spider-Man. He was doing a major part of the writing during the "Stan Lee" years.


The covers were outstanding and some of the characters introduced were as well. Luke Cage was never cooler

Quote:
The clone saga stemmed from the fact that Stan Lee ordered Conway to bring back Gwen, because he (Stan) was getting yelled at by fanboys at his various college speaking engagements, and he wound up telling an audience Gwen would be coming back. So Conway was stuck with that. The clone saga was a classic case of getting stuck with lemons and making lemonade.


Or a better writer could have made it even more powerful. The return of Gwen should have been crippling and devastating and the reveal it was a clone was too hasty.

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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 12:03 pm 
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While reaction to his Spider-Man is mixed, Conway had a great stint on Batman and Detective from 1981 - 1983.

The Clone Story probably showed his lack of experience as a writer handling the material that he was basically told to do, and if he knew he was leaving the title with issue 149, he probably had to get a lot covered before Len Wein then took over.

His return to the titles with Web and Spectacular were better than this run. Maybe because he had developed as a writer, and they were good solid superhero / sci fi / crime stories that made good use of Spidey's Rogues Gallery and supporting cast. Maybe a bit too much love for his pet character Tombstone in it, though.

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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:32 pm 
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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 3:36 pm 
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Didn't the Spider-Mobile debut like one issue after the Punisher did?

That is quite the juxtaposition.


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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:35 pm 
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Ocean Doot wrote:
Didn't the Spider-Mobile debut like one issue after the Punisher did?

That is quite the juxtaposition.

Yes.
Amazing #129 was the Punisher, Amazing #130 was the debut of the Spider-Mobile.


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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 5:45 pm 
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Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Marcus wrote:
Conway was 19 when he took over Spider-Man and killed off Gwen.

That's kind of insane when you think about it. They let some kid just out of high school write their most important title.

He had 76 writing credits for Marvel by the time he did Amazing #111.
108 writing credits overall from Marvel, DC, and Warren.


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 Post subject: Gerry Conway's Spider-Man
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2022 10:24 pm 
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Allen Berrebbi wrote:
I agree Gwen's death was not his fault alone, and to be honest, they wrote her pretty poorly for a few years already. They had no idea what to do with her, And yes MJ was becoming interesting but again, they kept going back and forth with her. But no, reading it now, the grief that should have been there was not. And yes, at the time, I shed a tear too.

I dunno, I think the grief was emphasized effectively. He thought about Gwen all the time for the first couple years, his thought balloons were full of guilt. He had flashbacks about her death anytime there was a similar situation (ie, everytime he was on a bridge or someone he cared about was endangered). And he was pretty angry and bitter for awhile there. What do you think should have been done differently in that regard?

Quote:
Or a better writer could have made it even more powerful. The return of Gwen should have been crippling and devastating and the reveal it was a clone was too hasty.

Crippling or devastating how? Give him a nervous breakdown and put him in a psychiatric hospital? That would probably be the most realistic response to having someone you knew was dead inexplicably return to life, but I wouldn't have wanted to see that (and it would have been pretty dark for the era, as well as kind of a dead end story). The clone storyline spanned nine issues (counting GS Spider-Man #4). That's a pretty long arc for that era, and to me it seemed about the right length. Making Gwen come back to life was a fundamentally stupid idea but at least Conway came up with an exciting, suspenseful way to do it. I think running it longer would have put more emphasis on the fundamental stupidity of the underlying premise of Gwen rising from the dead.

I admit that my love of this run may be partly nostalgia. I read these issues at just the right age (I was six when Conway took over and eight when he left) and the whole run was one of my childhood favorites. But FWIW I reread the entire run a couple years ago and thought it held up really well as an adult (and I most definitely do not feel that way about every story I loved when I was eight). In particular, I was impressed with how Conway handled the growing relationship with MJ. It starts with Peter acting like a bitter dick towards her right after Gwen's death, then gradually starting to grow closer, and finally falling in love, culminating with the dramatic moment in issue #143 where they kiss for the first time. That stuff flew by me when I was a kid, but their relationship was really well-written and natural.


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