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Allen Berrebbi
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:51 pm |
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Joined: | 07 Sep 2004 |
Posts: | 8455 |
Location: | Tampa, FL |
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So I am re-reading the Ditko Spider-Man and there are a few issues where MJ is being referenced as being beautiful, which in hindsight was a stupid mistake. Betty and Liz run into her and remark how gorgeous she was and again, in another issue. Why would they do the whole gag, if we already know she is a knockout? Seems like poor planning. 
_________________ DISCLAIMER: Everything I say from here on in is my opinion, semantics be damned. Allen Berrebbi Owner KRB Media
Big Bang Comics The Knight Watchman KRB Media
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Li'l Jay
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:55 pm |
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It scorched
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Joined: | 28 May 2006 |
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Bannings: | One too few . . . |
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So we could enjoy the bittersweet irony of Peter avoiding the blind date.
_________________ Rom's kiss turned Rogue a hero.
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Allen Berrebbi
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:05 pm |
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Joined: | 07 Sep 2004 |
Posts: | 8455 |
Location: | Tampa, FL |
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Li'l Jay wrote: So we could enjoy the bittersweet irony of Peter avoiding the blind date. Interesting but the later issues, especially the Romita ones, make it seem more comedic and if you read those first, like I did, it doesn't make sense.
_________________ DISCLAIMER: Everything I say from here on in is my opinion, semantics be damned. Allen Berrebbi Owner KRB Media
Big Bang Comics The Knight Watchman KRB Media
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Professor Plum
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:10 pm |
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Paroled evil genius
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Joined: | 10 Oct 2006 |
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Location: | Boddy Mansion |
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Trivia: The elderly woman shown in the 1st and 3rd panels was portrayed on film by Marisa Tomei.
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Jason Michael
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:18 pm |
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Nominated IMWAN's "Wet Blanket" for 2021
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Joined: | 30 May 2012 |
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Location: | Pembroke, Ontario, Canada |
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Professor Plum wrote: Trivia: The elderly woman shown in the 1st and 3rd panels was portrayed on film by Marisa Tomei. And the resemblance was UNCANNY!
_________________ “Don’t take life too serious. It ain’t nohow permanent.”
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Ocean Doot
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 9:37 pm |
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Dendritic Oscillating Ontological Tesseract
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Joined: | 25 Oct 2007 |
Posts: | 51039 |
Location: | Milwaukee |
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Jason Michael wrote: Professor Plum wrote: Trivia: The elderly woman shown in the 1st and 3rd panels was portrayed on film by Marisa Tomei. And the resemblance was UNCANNY! Like the Cubs winning the World Series in 2016!
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Li'l Jay
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 10:02 pm |
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It scorched
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Joined: | 28 May 2006 |
Posts: | 68693 |
Bannings: | One too few . . . |
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biff
_________________ Rom's kiss turned Rogue a hero.
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Bishop Hammer
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Wed Jun 15, 2022 11:03 pm |
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Write your own destiny
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Joined: | 03 Sep 2007 |
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Location: | The 4th level. |
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Jason Michael wrote: Professor Plum wrote: Trivia: The elderly woman shown in the 1st and 3rd panels was portrayed on film by Marisa Tomei. And the resemblance was UNCANNY! If Jacob Batalon can play Ned Leeds then Marisa can play Aunt May.
_________________ I'm forever blowing bubbles,
pretty bubbles in the air,
they fly so high,
nearly reach the sky,
then like my dreams,
they fade and die.
Fortune's always hiding,
I've looked everywhere,
I'm forever blowing bubbles,
pretty bubbles in the air.
UNITED! UNITED!
West Ham United fight song.
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Hanzo the Razor
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:38 am |
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Ancient Alien Theorist
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Allen Berrebbi wrote: Li'l Jay wrote: So we could enjoy the bittersweet irony of Peter avoiding the blind date. Interesting but the later issues, especially the Romita ones, make it seem more comedic and if you read those first, like I did, it doesn't make sense. Because at that point, Steve Ditko was doing the full plotting -- In 1966, Stan Lee wrote: I don’t plot Spider-Man anymore. Steve Ditko, the artist, has been doing the stories. I guess I’ll leave him alone until sales start to slip. Since Spidey got so popular, Ditko thinks he’s the genius of the world. We were arguing so much over plotlines I told him to start making up his own stories. So when Ditko later left, it's possible that Stan didn't know exactly how Steve planned on working this into the ongoing soap opera. I think Jay is correct about the irony angle, but "Steverino" might have had something big planned with the reveal of her good looks, something worth several issues of build-up, that he never explained to Stan.
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Allen Berrebbi
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:09 pm |
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Joined: | 07 Sep 2004 |
Posts: | 8455 |
Location: | Tampa, FL |
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Meanwhile, I just saw that Batman and Black Canary "had a moment" in JLA #84 and I wonder if they ever followed up on this? 
_________________ DISCLAIMER: Everything I say from here on in is my opinion, semantics be damned. Allen Berrebbi Owner KRB Media
Big Bang Comics The Knight Watchman KRB Media
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Kid Nemo
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2022 11:12 pm |
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Hen Teaser
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Joined: | 05 Apr 2011 |
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Location: | on Floogle St.,at the Susquehanna Hat Company |
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They sure did---in All-Star Batman & Robin,remember?
_________________ What will be will be even if it never happens.
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Ocean Doot
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:01 am |
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Dendritic Oscillating Ontological Tesseract
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Jason Czeskleba
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 1:13 am |
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Joined: | 03 Jan 2007 |
Posts: | 1645 |
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Allen Berrebbi wrote: Meanwhile, I just saw that Batman and Black Canary "had a moment" in JLA #84 and I wonder if they ever followed up on this?  In JLA #88, she lets him down with the old "I think of you like a brother" speech, handled in typically florid style by Mike Friedrich. Apparently Black Canary comes from the Princess Leia school of sibling relations:  Of course the backstory is that Robert Kanigher dropped that bizarre kiss subplot into the one issue he wrote, and subsequent writer Mike Friedrich felt like he had to (as he put it in a later interview) "clean up a mistake." The "seed of bitterness" planted in Batman is never followed up upon in later issues. At any rate, both Kanigher and Friedrich wrote some really loopy stuff... JLA during that period often approached "so bad it's good" territory.
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That meddlin kid
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:00 am |
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Biker Librarian
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Joined: | 26 Mar 2007 |
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Location: | On the highway, looking for adventure |
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Jason Czeskleba wrote: Allen Berrebbi wrote: Meanwhile, I just saw that Batman and Black Canary "had a moment" in JLA #84 and I wonder if they ever followed up on this?  Of course the backstory is that Robert Kanigher dropped that bizarre kiss subplot into the one issue he wrote, and subsequent writer Mike Friedrich felt like he had to (as he put it in a later interview) "clean up a mistake." The "seed of bitterness" planted in Batman is never followed up upon in later issues. At any rate, both Kanigher and Friedrich wrote some really loopy stuff... JLA during that period often approached "so bad it's good" territory. I've seen Robert Kanigher's style of writing described as "flying without instruments." Which would explain a few things I recall seeing in some of my brother's old war comics that he wrote. Wonder what the context is supposed to be? Black Canary looks in the second panel like she just learned that a dear loved one had died. Was Batman trying to comfort her about something? At any rate, the narration there is either so bad it's good, or so bad it's just plain bad.
_________________ The kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls who, when he found an especially costly one, sold everything he had to buy it.
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Evans
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 11:35 am |
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Boring but true
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I didn't know I was trapped in a universal web of loneliness, like all humans. Looks like I, too, need to grope through the darkness for my soul, then.
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Jason Czeskleba
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2022 8:51 pm |
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Joined: | 03 Jan 2007 |
Posts: | 1645 |
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That meddlin kid wrote: I've seen Robert Kanigher's style of writing described as "flying without instruments." Which would explain a few things I recall seeing in some of my brother's old war comics that he wrote.
Wonder what the context is supposed to be? Black Canary looks in the second panel like she just learned that a dear loved one had died. Was Batman trying to comfort her about something? At any rate, the narration there is either so bad it's good, or so bad it's just plain bad. I'm pretty sure I read an interview with Kanigher once where he said he didn't plot his stories out in advance, but just sat down and wrote them. "Flying without instruments" is a very apt metaphor for his meandering style and the sometimes-bizarre, out-of-left-field plot twists that characterize his work. I could try to summarize the context of the kiss scene, but it's easier to just post the preceding page: Kanigher was trying hard to insert Marvel-style characterization into his writing, but it's just florid and over-the-top. Canary's husband had just died a few issues prior, so she's weepy about that. Batman is pining for a lost love never mentioned before or again, and sees his opportunity to get some grief nookie, I guess. And the thing is, as weird as this issue by Kanigher is, Mike Friedrich seems to have taken as a gauntlet thrown down, because the issues he writes subsequently are jam packed with even more awkward and out-of-character emoting. The best moment being when he has Harlan Ellison guest star (yes, seriously) and Ellison becomes obsessively in love with Black Canary to the point that he somehow develops the super-power to cast illusions or alter reality (it's unclear what he's doing exactly). The gonzo craziness in JLA #84-99 is not to be topped.
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Allen Berrebbi
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:30 pm |
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Joined: | 07 Sep 2004 |
Posts: | 8455 |
Location: | Tampa, FL |
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Kid Nemo wrote: They sure did---in All-Star Batman & Robin,remember? No thank you Jason Czeskleba wrote: In JLA #88, she lets him down with the old "I think of you like a brother" speech, handled in typically florid style by Mike Friedrich. Apparently Black Canary comes from the Princess Leia school of sibling relations:  Of course the backstory is that Robert Kanigher dropped that bizarre kiss subplot into the one issue he wrote, and subsequent writer Mike Friedrich felt like he had to (as he put it in a later interview) "clean up a mistake." The "seed of bitterness" planted in Batman is never followed up upon in later issues. At any rate, both Kanigher and Friedrich wrote some really loopy stuff... JLA during that period often approached "so bad it's good" territory. Yeah it was all over the place. Jason Czeskleba wrote: I'm pretty sure I read an interview with Kanigher once where he said he didn't plot his stories out in advance, but just sat down and wrote them. "Flying without instruments" is a very apt metaphor for his meandering style and the sometimes-bizarre, out-of-left-field plot twists that characterize his work. I could try to summarize the context of the kiss scene, but it's easier to just post the preceding page: Kanigher was trying hard to insert Marvel-style characterization into his writing, but it's just florid and over-the-top. Canary's husband had just died a few issues prior, so she's weepy about that. Batman is pining for a lost love never mentioned before or again, and sees his opportunity to get some grief nookie, I guess. And the thing is, as weird as this issue by Kanigher is, Mike Friedrich seems to have taken as a gauntlet thrown down, because the issues he writes subsequently are jam packed with even more awkward and out-of-character emoting. The best moment being when he has Harlan Ellison guest star (yes, seriously) and Ellison becomes obsessively in love with Black Canary to the point that he somehow develops the super-power to cast illusions or alter reality (it's unclear what he's doing exactly). The gonzo craziness in JLA #84-99 is not to be topped. I'm not sure why I never noticed it before.
_________________ DISCLAIMER: Everything I say from here on in is my opinion, semantics be damned. Allen Berrebbi Owner KRB Media
Big Bang Comics The Knight Watchman KRB Media
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Pooh Fresh
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2022 10:59 pm |
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Joined: | 28 Nov 2006 |
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There’s no love in numbers , Black Canary
_________________ .............WAIT !!!!!!
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That meddlin kid
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 9:57 am |
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Biker Librarian
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Joined: | 26 Mar 2007 |
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Location: | On the highway, looking for adventure |
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Jason Czeskleba wrote: That meddlin kid wrote: I've seen Robert Kanigher's style of writing described as "flying without instruments." Which would explain a few things I recall seeing in some of my brother's old war comics that he wrote.
Wonder what the context is supposed to be? Black Canary looks in the second panel like she just learned that a dear loved one had died. Was Batman trying to comfort her about something? At any rate, the narration there is either so bad it's good, or so bad it's just plain bad. I'm pretty sure I read an interview with Kanigher once where he said he didn't plot his stories out in advance, but just sat down and wrote them. "Flying without instruments" is a very apt metaphor for his meandering style and the sometimes-bizarre, out-of-left-field plot twists that characterize his work. Kanigher was trying hard to insert Marvel-style characterization into his writing, but it's just florid and over-the-top. Canary's husband had just died a few issues prior, so she's weepy about that. Batman is pining for a lost love never mentioned before or again, and sees his opportunity to get some grief nookie, I guess. And the thing is, as weird as this issue by Kanigher is, Mike Friedrich seems to have taken as a gauntlet thrown down, because the issues he writes subsequently are jam packed with even more awkward and out-of-character emoting. The best moment being when he has Harlan Ellison guest star (yes, seriously) and Ellison becomes obsessively in love with Black Canary to the point that he somehow develops the super-power to cast illusions or alter reality (it's unclear what he's doing exactly). The gonzo craziness in JLA #84-99 is not to be topped. Okay, Black Canary's emotional state makes more sense in that context. That's still some terribly clunky writing. Sounds like that era of JLA, which I've seen little of, was as nutty as some of Marvel's 1970s "Defenders" comics. I would never have figured Harlan Ellison for such a sentimental type....
_________________ The kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls who, when he found an especially costly one, sold everything he had to buy it.
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Kid Nemo
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 11:49 am |
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Hen Teaser
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Joined: | 05 Apr 2011 |
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The idea of a hothead like Harlan Ellison having superpowers.... 
_________________ What will be will be even if it never happens.
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Jason Czeskleba
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:03 pm |
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Joined: | 03 Jan 2007 |
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Here's the penultimate page from the Ellison story. Mike Friedrich accomplishes something truly unbelievable... he makes Robert Kanigher's writing look subtle and naturalistic by comparison:  The most remarkable thing of all is that Ellison (who by all accounts was generally a very tough critic) actually liked this story. He was sent an advance copy, and he apparently liked it so much he asked Julie Schwartz to dispense with the pseudonym ("Harlequin Ellis") attached to his character and use his real name in the story. Apparently ego got in the way of his critical judgment here. At any rate, Schwartz decided against using his real name.
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Ocean Doot
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Post subject: Why the MJ Surprise Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2022 3:28 pm |
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Dendritic Oscillating Ontological Tesseract
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Joined: | 25 Oct 2007 |
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Alternate possibility: Harlan Ellison's critical judgment has always been crap, with him arbitrarily tearing apart things that are good and gushing over things that suck, but somehow he's managed to maintain his image as some kind of genius, through the force of an unrelentingly obnoxious personality.
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