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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:39 am 
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Interesting premise from another message board --

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This came up when talking with a friend recently - is there a story out there that is generally accepted as a classic, but that leaves you cold? Something everyone else seems to love, but you just hate it? Interested in what some of you think.

I know some love it , but for me it's THE KILLING JOKE. I hated it in 1988 and the few times I've re-read it since have done nothing to change my mind. Barbara is only a victim in this story, not a hero. The treatment of Jim Gordon is sadistic. But what solidified my feelings for me was the story ends with Batman and the Joker sharing a laugh. Really? After what happened in this story they're chuckling over a joke? (I've read the theories that what actually happens is Batman kills the Joker at the end. Yeah ... sorry, I think you're seeing something that ain't there).


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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:44 am 
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For me, I can't say I really dislike anything passionately enough to "loathe" it -- but outside of his collaborators, I'm mystified by the popularity of Jeph Loeb. Even the supposed good stuff like The Long Halloween and For All Seasons is fairly "meh" to me.

Ironically, I own a huge chunk of his work because he works with a lot of my favorite artists, particularly Ed McGuinness... I think he's written 80%-90% of Ed's output!


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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:57 am 
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I wouldn't say I 'loathe' The Dark Knight Returns by Miller & Janson, but I remember being mystified by the popularity of it. It became accepted as a kind of instant classic, a masterpiece, and I didn't see why. It wasn't terrible at all, but I didn't perceive the 'greatness' of it that so many others did. To me, it was a decent read but I didn't understand why it was so revered by so many. I still don't understand this reverence for it.

I didn't loathe it, but I didn't feel like I saw the 'greatness' so many people seemed to be seeing in it.

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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:16 am 
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"Kraven's Last Hunt"...not what I'm looking for in a Spider-Man story.

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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:48 am 
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Simon wrote:
I wouldn't say I 'loathe' The Dark Knight Returns by Miller & Janson, but I remember being mystified by the popularity of it. It became accepted as a kind of instant classic, a masterpiece, and I didn't see why. It wasn't terrible at all, but I didn't perceive the 'greatness' of it that so many others did. To me, it was a decent read but I didn't understand why it was so revered by so many. I still don't understand this reverence for it.

I didn't loathe it, but I didn't feel like I saw the 'greatness' so many people seemed to be seeing in it.

I think this blog does a nice job of going over what's so special about it, if you're actually interested: https://bigother.com/2010/01/23/reading ... ns-part-1/

Not that it'll make you like it, of course -- just sharing in case you're interested in what us fans like about it.


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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:12 pm 
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Thank you. You're right - I'll never like it. I've tried...it just didn't 'take'. ;)

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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:29 pm 
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I'm not crazy for "Watchmen".

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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 12:45 pm 
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Other than the very nice artwork, I was pretty underwhelmed with this one... though I wouldn't say I loathed it.

Click for full size


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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Secret Wars---a whole lotta nothin'.

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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 1:43 pm 
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Most everything after 1968, but it's disinterest, not loathing.

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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:01 pm 
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Yes. I'd have to say that loathing is the stumble here. I don't loathe the Killing Joke, but it's not on my list of top ten Batman stories by a long shot.

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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:04 pm 
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Kid Nemo wrote:
Secret Wars---a whole lotta nothin'.

You are correct. I have a certain fondness for it because it was coming out right when I started collecting as a kid....but other than nostalgia, not real good.


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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:07 pm 
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Pretty much all of the classics I've seen by Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, and Frank Miller. Although I am prepared to recognize the first two as being highly talented. I've always considered Frank Miller the original unclothed emperor.

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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:20 pm 
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Marcus wrote:
I'm not crazy for "Watchmen".


:thumbsup:


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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:23 pm 
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Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Interesting premise from another message board --

Quote:
(I've read the theories that what actually happens is Batman kills the Joker at the end. Yeah ... sorry, I think you're seeing something that ain't there).

... but that IS what happens.


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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:32 pm 
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Fraxon! wrote:
Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Interesting premise from another message board --

Quote:
(I've read the theories that what actually happens is Batman kills the Joker at the end. Yeah ... sorry, I think you're seeing something that ain't there).

... but that IS what happens.

Which he should've done years ago.

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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 5:42 pm 
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This is Moore's script for the final page:

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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:20 pm 
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Frankly, I don't understand why people think Batman is killing him -- Batman's arms are at mid-torso level in that final panel, so he couldn't be choking him.


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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:42 am 
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That meddlin kid wrote:
Pretty much all of the classics I've seen by Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, and Frank Miller. Although I am prepared to recognize the first two as being highly talented. I've always considered Frank Miller the original unclothed emperor.

I think Frank is actually the most talented of the three since he both writes and draws his stories, while the other two rely on artists to transfer their vision into the comicbook medium.


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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:49 am 
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Hanzo the Razor wrote:
That meddlin kid wrote:
Pretty much all of the classics I've seen by Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, and Frank Miller. Although I am prepared to recognize the first two as being highly talented. I've always considered Frank Miller the original unclothed emperor.

I think Frank is actually the most talented of the three since he both writes and draws his stories, while the other two rely on artists to transfer their vision into the comicbook medium.

I've read fantastic stuff by all 3, and I've put down terrible stuff by all 3 without finishing it. I have to say Miller has far more of the latter than the other two, most of it his more recent stuff. I would definitely say they are all 3 highly talented though, regardless of whether I enjoyed all their work.


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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:53 am 
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Jeff wrote:
I've read fantastic stuff by all 3, and I've put down terrible stuff by all 3 without finishing it. I have to say Miller has far more of the latter than the other two, most of it his more recent stuff. I would definitely say they are all 3 highly talented though, regardless of whether I enjoyed all their work.

For me, everything Frank has done is at least "good" up until either Sin City: Hell & Back or DKSA. After that, the best thing you can say about the work is it's "interesting". But everything else before the year 2000? Daredevil, Dark Knight Returns, Year One, Ronin, Martha Washington, Sin City, Elektra, Big Guy & Rusty, etc.?

Sí, por favor.


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 Post subject: Which "Classic" Story Do You Loathe?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 9:02 am 
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Miller had an amazing creative streak before 2000. I think the conclusion to the Martha Washington saga was the first thing I read that I did not enjoy. I kind of liked DKSA....although I wasn't sure why he hated Robin so much :)


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