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Prowl
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:04 pm |
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Joined: | 08 Oct 2006 |
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And initiatives like Kickstarter definitely help indie creators, if their project catches on with people.
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RobertSwanderson
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:42 pm |
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Bigger and Better!
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Joined: | 01 Jan 2007 |
Posts: | 52207 |
Location: | WGBS |
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Prowl wrote: Stores support what sells, and what people want. This. As a retailer, you can only "support indie comics" to a certain point.
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Hanzo the Razor
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:52 pm |
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Ancient Alien Theorist
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Joined: | 24 Jun 2007 |
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Location: | The Fourth World |
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RobertSwanderson wrote: Prowl wrote: Stores support what sells, and what people want. This. As a retailer, you can only "support indie comics" to a certain point. Yeah, it's tough when you try things and they end up just draining profit from your shop. How long are stores supposed to support indies when no one buys them?
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RobertSwanderson
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:00 pm |
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Bigger and Better!
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Joined: | 01 Jan 2007 |
Posts: | 52207 |
Location: | WGBS |
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If you have a couple of graphic novels, even small ones, a retailer can support that. Those can fit on the GN shelf with the binding showing, sit there for a year or two and still sell. But when you have a monthly or quarterly floppy... that's a different story. That's a lot of shelf space on the "new" or "current" comics wall. And when you move them off of the wall, they go to the back issue longbox of death. Much, much, much less chance of them selling there. Fewer customers that will take the time to flip through the long boxes... and if they do, they're usually looking for specific titles.
I would go digital monthly followed by a printed GN.
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Allen Berrebbi
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:45 pm |
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Joined: | 07 Sep 2004 |
Posts: | 8455 |
Location: | Tampa, FL |
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Hanzo the Razor wrote: RobertSwanderson wrote: Prowl wrote: Stores support what sells, and what people want. This. As a retailer, you can only "support indie comics" to a certain point. Yeah, it's tough when you try things and they end up just draining profit from your shop. How long are stores supposed to support indies when no one buys them? No question it's hard for the retailers too. I can't blame most of them either. They have budgets. RobertSwanderson wrote: If you have a couple of graphic novels, even small ones, a retailer can support that. Those can fit on the GN shelf with the binding showing, sit there for a year or two and still sell. But when you have a monthly or quarterly floppy... that's a different story. That's a lot of shelf space on the "new" or "current" comics wall. And when you move them off of the wall, they go to the back issue longbox of death. Much, much, much less chance of them selling there. Fewer customers that will take the time to flip through the long boxes... and if they do, they're usually looking for specific titles.
I would go digital monthly followed by a printed GN. That's what I would do too. It makes the most sense to me.
_________________ DISCLAIMER: Everything I say from here on in is my opinion, semantics be damned. Allen Berrebbi Owner KRB Media
Big Bang Comics The Knight Watchman KRB Media
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Erik Larsen
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 2:57 pm |
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Savage Dragon perpetrator
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Joined: | 15 Jul 2009 |
Posts: | 812 |
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It depends on the retailer. Some sell comics and some actually SELL comics--as it get people interested in comics and engage with their customers.
Years ago, when X-Men was all the rage and a huge seller--our local store was selling more copies of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing because he actively pushed that book.
_________________ _________________ -Erik Larsen Savage Dragon perpetrator
http://www.savagedragon.com http://www.imagecomics.com
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Allen Berrebbi
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:00 pm |
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Joined: | 07 Sep 2004 |
Posts: | 8455 |
Location: | Tampa, FL |
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Erik Larsen wrote: It depends on the retailer. Some sell comics and some actually SELL comics--as it get people interested in comics and engage with their customers.
Years ago, when X-Men was all the rage and a huge seller--our local store was selling more copies of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing because he actively pushed that book. But the number of actual comic book shops, let alone good comic shops, are so small and getting smaller than ever.
_________________ DISCLAIMER: Everything I say from here on in is my opinion, semantics be damned. Allen Berrebbi Owner KRB Media
Big Bang Comics The Knight Watchman KRB Media
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Monk
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:11 pm |
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Location: | Between the thumb and the wrist. |
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Hanzo the Razor
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:14 pm |
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Ancient Alien Theorist
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Joined: | 24 Jun 2007 |
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Location: | The Fourth World |
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Allen Berrebbi wrote: But the number of actual comic book shops, let alone good comic shops, are so small and getting smaller than ever. One of the good things that I'm seeing in my area is that the genuinely good retailers are staying in business -- the clubhouse types are the ones shutting down.
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Joe Mayer
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:59 pm |
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Joined: | 21 Jun 2006 |
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Location: | Des Moines, IoWAN |
Bannings: | Uncountable |
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What if indy comics could sell to the CM, and by that I mean to coffee market?
If coffee shops has a tiny rack in them, would people buy?
_________________ Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons because, to them, you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.
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Steve
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:02 pm |
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What do you call a camel with three humps?
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Joined: | 21 Oct 2004 |
Posts: | 58174 |
Location: | Indiana |
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I thin coffee shops need a huge rack to get me to buy.
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Fraxon!
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:05 pm |
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Joined: | 22 Aug 2004 |
Posts: | 40603 |
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Steve wrote: I think coffee barristas need a huge rack to get me to buy. IAWTP
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RobertSwanderson
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:42 pm |
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Bigger and Better!
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Joined: | 01 Jan 2007 |
Posts: | 52207 |
Location: | WGBS |
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Erik Larsen wrote: --our local store was selling more copies of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing because he actively pushed that book. That's a pretty easy sell. If there's an Alan Moore's Swamp Thing on the indie shelves right now, somebody please point me towards it. If there are good indies, my shops have always let me know about them. But there aren't a ton of Invincibles and Walking Deads on the shelves at any given time.
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Allen Berrebbi
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:20 pm |
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Joined: | 07 Sep 2004 |
Posts: | 8455 |
Location: | Tampa, FL |
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Monk wrote: That's the case with bookstores, too. Should book publishers abandon brick and mortar stores? No because the publishers are still making tons of money there but maybe a tiny vanity press should. Hanzo the Razor wrote: Allen Berrebbi wrote: But the number of actual comic book shops, let alone good comic shops, are so small and getting smaller than ever. One of the good things that I'm seeing in my area is that the genuinely good retailers are staying in business -- the clubhouse types are the ones shutting down. Unfortunately there are not enough for the fans or impulse buying for new readers. RobertSwanderson wrote: Erik Larsen wrote: --our local store was selling more copies of Alan Moore's Swamp Thing because he actively pushed that book. That's a pretty easy sell. If there's an Alan Moore's Swamp Thing on the indie shelves right now, somebody please point me towards it. If there are good indies, my shops have always let me know about them. But there aren't a ton of Invincibles and Walking Deads on the shelves at any given time. That's awesome but these are still DC or Image books, not the small indie's Im thinking of.
_________________ DISCLAIMER: Everything I say from here on in is my opinion, semantics be damned. Allen Berrebbi Owner KRB Media
Big Bang Comics The Knight Watchman KRB Media
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Allen Berrebbi
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:01 pm |
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Joined: | 07 Sep 2004 |
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Li'l Jay
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:13 pm |
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It scorched
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Joined: | 28 May 2006 |
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Bannings: | One too few . . . |
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Joe Mayer wrote: What if indy comics could sell to the CM, and by that I mean to coffee market?
If coffee shops has a tiny rack in them, would people buy? This is why bookstores like Barnes and Noble need to do it -- they've already concluded they need the coffee business. Now they need to find a way to make some of the material more "hip." Indie comics, non-traditional comics, more underground-flavor comics.
_________________ Rom's kiss turned Rogue a hero.
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Li'l Jay
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:15 pm |
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It scorched
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Joined: | 28 May 2006 |
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Bannings: | One too few . . . |
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I loved the aesthetic of that place the teenagers were in in the movie Kick-Ass. It wasn't realistic, and they would need to get rid of the back issue bins, but they were in a coffee shop type of thing with cool posters and comics.
I think a coffee shop could do well if it just adopted indie comics as it's visual theme. Sure, sell some. But mainly just build the decor around that vibe.
_________________ Rom's kiss turned Rogue a hero.
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Allen Berrebbi
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:45 pm |
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Joined: | 07 Sep 2004 |
Posts: | 8455 |
Location: | Tampa, FL |
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Li'l Jay wrote: I loved the aesthetic of that place the teenagers were in in the movie Kick-Ass. It wasn't realistic, and they would need to get rid of the back issue bins, but they were in a coffee shop type of thing with cool posters and comics.
I think a coffee shop could do well if it just adopted indie comics as it's visual theme. Sure, sell some. But mainly just build the decor around that vibe. I'd like that too. Back in the day, when I was thinking of opening a shop, I thought I would put it near where moms are, like a supermarket, and make it very hang-outy, with candy, chairs etc. and kids who were dragged with their moms could hang there while the moms finished shopping.
_________________ DISCLAIMER: Everything I say from here on in is my opinion, semantics be damned. Allen Berrebbi Owner KRB Media
Big Bang Comics The Knight Watchman KRB Media
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RobertSwanderson
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:46 pm |
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Bigger and Better!
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Location: | WGBS |
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I found that there are people that want to relax and read comics, and people that want to buy comics. Not a lot of folks that want to sit and read, and then buy.
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Li'l Jay
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:54 pm |
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It scorched
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Bannings: | One too few . . . |
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RobertSwanderson wrote: I found that there are people that want to relax and read comics, and people that want to buy comics. Not a lot of folks that want to sit and read, and then buy. I think it needs to be thought of as coffee shop first, some indie comics around second. Kind of like you might adopt a music theme, or a skateboard vibe, etc. The cool think about comics is that they are art, can lead to good posters and stuff. And just have some racks of indie comics around. But I'm think daily revenue from coffee far outstrips comic books. People are used to paying $3 for a cup of strained water that will be gone in 10 minutes. They're not used to paying that for a comic book.
_________________ Rom's kiss turned Rogue a hero.
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Allen Berrebbi
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 3:58 pm |
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Joined: | 07 Sep 2004 |
Posts: | 8455 |
Location: | Tampa, FL |
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Li'l Jay wrote: RobertSwanderson wrote: I found that there are people that want to relax and read comics, and people that want to buy comics. Not a lot of folks that want to sit and read, and then buy. I think it needs to be thought of as coffee shop first, some indie comics around second. Kind of like you might adopt a music theme, or a skateboard vibe, etc. The cool think about comics is that they are art, can lead to good posters and stuff. And just have some racks of indie comics around. But I'm think daily revenue from coffee far outstrips comic books. People are used to paying $3 for a cup of strained water that will be gone in 10 minutes. They're not used to paying that for a comic book. Heck I believe you can even get a newstand account, making them returnable, and load up on comics.
_________________ DISCLAIMER: Everything I say from here on in is my opinion, semantics be damned. Allen Berrebbi Owner KRB Media
Big Bang Comics The Knight Watchman KRB Media
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Hanzo the Razor
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Post subject: Indie Comics should Abandon the DM Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 2:45 pm |
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Ancient Alien Theorist
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Interesting column -- Jim Campbell wrote: Why Digital Publishing Won't Save Comics (Yet)
I was pondering the state of digital comics the other day. As much as I love traditional dead tree publishing, there are kids today growing up with iPads in their hands for whom paper holds no such charm, and it is there, if anywhere, that comics might recapture something resembling the mass market it (foolishly, IMO) ceded when it withdrew from the high street and supermarket to the specialist comic shop.
Before we get to the nitty gritty, I think it's important to define some basics, especially since we're going to be talking about a business model.
Firstly: how much is a comic worth?
Here are some numbers -- these are for illustration purposes only and are chosen as much for easy maths as for accuracy, but aren't a million miles from what you might expect from a low-to-mid-level indie publisher in the US:
Script: $50 per page Pencils: $80 per page Inks: $60 per page Colours: $50 per page Letters: $10 per page
That's based on each contributor making about $10 an hour for working on the book. That probably stiffs the writer a bit, but I imagine they'll be used to that by now.
That makes $250 to produce a page, meaning that a 24-page comic contains $6000 of work. If the book makes less than that for its contributors, then the creators would have made more money flipping burgers at McDonalds. Now, as an individual, you might be fine with that. Your book might be a labour of love, you might be happy just to have it in front of an audience. As an individual, that's no problem. As a model for a business, never mind an industry, I think we need to be paying our creators more than McDonalds.
Second: we need to define a couple of terms, most importantly, what I mean by publisher in this post. By publisher, I mean the person, group or organization with the legal right to publish a work. In a self-published work, this will mean one or more of the creators; in other circumstances it may refer to a publishing company in the more traditional sense.
I'm going to talk about how money from digital sales flows to the publisher. If that's a different legal entity to the creators, then there's a different mechanism by which money passes to the creators, but that's a discussion for a different day.
So… you want to get your comics onto a digital platform. Phones are, let's be honest, a rubbish medium for reading comics, so we're mainly talking about tablets. Right now, we're talking about iPads.
Unless you have access to a friendly iOS developer to do write you a dedicated app to serve up your content, you're going to need to go through one of the comic apps that already exists. I believe the deals on offer are broadly similar, so I don't want anyone to think I'm singling out a specific app; let's refer instead to GenericComicApp. You know the sort of thing: the publisher submits their comic to GenericComicApp and people can buy the comic through their phone or iPad using the App.
As for the specifics, let's take Mark Millar's word on this since, if there's anyone in the industry today who knows how to make money from comics, it's probably Millar, who wrote:
Apple take 30% right off the bat. In the case of Wanted, Comixology then splits 50/50 with the publisher. Then the publisher pays the agent and creative team out of the remaining cash depending on their deal.
(Note: I remember Mark making a post about this on the Millarworld forums, but I can't find that post for a direct cite, so I have lifted this text from Andy Yen's My Day Will Come blog.)
Mark refers to Comixology, but I don't believe their deal differs in any significant way from GenericComicApp.
So… crunching a few numbers:
Let's say that, as a publisher, you're really invested in the future of digital comics; you've got no print overhead and no returns so why not price the product aggressively and try to pick up casual sales. Let's say that you price your book at $0.99.
Apple take 30% right off the bat, leaving $0.70 (rounded up for easier maths).
Publisher and GenericComicApp split that 50/50 and get $0.35 each.
Remember that there is $6000 worth of work in this book, so simply ensuring that the creators make their money, before we've even thought about profit for the publisher, you need to have sold 17,143 digital copies.
That's a lot. You're not going to shift those sort of numbers without some promotional activity, which is going to cost money in itself and drive up the number of copies needed to turn a profit.
Of course, you can drive the number of copies needed down by raising the price, but I'll say right now that I believe $2.99 is too much for a 22 or 24 page digital comic unless you're adding value over and above the normal comic page (I always like Infurious' rather ingenious approach). $3.99 for a single issue is, in my opinion, impossible to justify.
So, let's stick with that $0.99 number for now.
Let's back up for a minute, though, because I think there's something distinctly iffy about that illustration. Let's think about traditional distribution for a moment -- I worked in the newspaper and magazine industry for years, so I know a bit about this…
Traditionally, the publisher approaches a wholesaler/distributor (pretty much always Diamond for US comics but there is more plurality in the wider publishing industry). In return for a discount on the cover price, the wholesaler agrees to distribute the publication to as many retail outlets as the agreement covers. The wholesaler will usually want a discount on the cover price ranging between 55% and 65%, call it 50% for easy maths.
I sell my publication to the wholesaler for 50% of the cover price, let's say $0.49 on my hypothetical $0.99 cover price. The wholesaler sells the publication to the retailers for 75% of the cover price, say $0.75 netting themselves 26 cents profit on each copy. The retailer sells the publication at cover price, $0.99 which is $0.24 over what they paid for it.
Now, let's go back and think about that digital model again.
In that model, Apple is the retailer: they provide the merchant services, the servers, the bandwidth and, most importantly, access to their shopfront which is arguably the most trusted channel in the world for online purchasing of content.
GenericComicApp is the distributor. So why are they loading the cost of the retail mark-up onto the publisher?
What should be happening is this: publisher approaches GenericComicApp and sells their comic to them for 50% of the cover price, netting the publisher $0.49 per sale. GenericComicApp then distributes to the retail channel at $0.99. The retailer, Apple in this case, takes 30% of the cover price, $0.30, leaving $0.20 per issue for GenericComicApp.
Using this model, you need to sell 12,245 copies, nearly 5,000 less to cover the work done by the contributors.
Obviously, you can see why GenericComicApp would rather run their business in the way it currently works, but this is essentially screwing the publisher by loading both the wholesale and retail mark-ups on the publisher when, in fact, each 'link' in the chain from production to sale should only be concerned with the sell-on price to the next link in the chain.
Even Diamond, of whom I am no fan, follow this model and they, at least, have to warehouse stock and move physical product around. GenericComicApp doesn't even have those overheads: a couple of iOS developers retained on a freelance basis to keep the app maintained is hardly going to break the bank.
Let me phrase that as simply as I can: at least some online comic distributors have fashioned a business model that is even less favourable to publishers than the one Diamond uses, despite having lower overheads.
If even Mark Millar can't make money from digital comics, then we're doing it wrong. http://clintflickerlettering.blogspot.c ... omics.html
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