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Hanzo the Razor
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:00 am |
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Ancient Alien Theorist
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Joined: | 24 Jun 2007 |
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This isn't directed toward any one here in particular... just fans in general. When you look at what's selling, most of the indies or even new stuff from the Big Two is real low on the charts... it seems like a character must be at least 40 years old to sell at all. I don't think I've ever seen a group of fans so obsessed with particular fictional constructs.
As mentioned in another thread, a character's prescence isn't a guarantee of quality at all -- and to me, at a certain point, it seems to be a guarantee that the work will be quite commercial, restrictive in content, and creatively bankrupt to a degree. Sure, there's the occassional Dark Knight Returns or Superman: Red Son where a creator's allowed to say something with a character instead of just churning out the next in a series of never-ending adventures that will ultimately prove meaningless to both the characters in the story (gotta preserve that status quo) and likely to the reader too.
Obviously, I love certain extablished characters and find some to be intrinsically appealing, such as Superman or Spider-Man -- however, at the end of the day, when I make a purchase, I want a good comic, not just a comic that features a character I know, quality be damned.
We don't do this with movies -- we don't only watch a film is a specific character or franchise is represented. It may be a bonus that it's the new Pirates of Caribbean or Star Trek movie, but we won't refuse to see another film because it's not part of a franchise. Most of us don't buy music from a limited set of specific bands from certain record labels -- in fact, we get excited when we discover a new band. But a certain chunk of readers, a highly significant one, has a "Marvel/DC only" policy when it comes to what they'll read.
So I guess I'm wondering why? Is the newest issue of Uncanny X-Men really better than an issue of Planetary? Was some random issue of JLA better than The Authority? Is Wolverine's comic genuinely superior to Invincible or Powers?
I don't get it.
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Rafael
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:18 am |
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Traveler
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We're a bunch of Pavlov's dogs.
_________________ Are you ready? Are you ready to jump right off the edge of everything?
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James C. Taylor
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:27 am |
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a k a LightningMan, lover of bountiful pulchritude
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You really need to think of it like cuisine. Yes, there are some people who are always looking for new and different flavor profiles and combinations, but more people when they find something they like to eat simply want more of it. They'll handle some variations and spins and maybe a brave few can stomach a deconstruction, but in the end they'll eat mashed potatoes over and over again a zillion times before anyone can get them to try rutabaga puree, even if it is prepared by their favorite chef and served by the hottest waitress.
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Jeff
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:49 am |
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The Modfather; Wizard of WAN
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Hanzo the Razor wrote: ...not just a comic that features a character I know, quality be damned. You keep saying this, but I don't believe it's how most people who purchase as you describe feel/think. Those X-Men fans will get quite vocal when they don't like what's being written, and Chuck Austen will be fired.  They might be loyal to a fault towards characters they've grown up with, but they're not just mindless drones only buying X-Men because that's all they know.
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Judge WAN
IMWAN Mod |
Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 11:57 am |
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He Keeps WAN with his BANgiver
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Joined: | 01 Aug 2005 |
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I know with marketing that brand loyalty starts in peoples 30's and gets stronger thru their 40's and 50's. I'm thinking the same is true with comic books since the fan base is aging.
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Hanzo the Razor
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:03 pm |
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Ancient Alien Theorist
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Jeff wrote: Hanzo the Razor wrote: ...not just a comic that features a character I know, quality be damned. You keep saying this, but I don't believe it's how most people who purchase as you describe feel/think. Those X-Men fans will get quite vocal when they don't like what's being written, and Chuck Austen will be fired.  They might be loyal to a fault towards characters they've grown up with, but they're not just mindless drones only buying X-Men because that's all they know. Really? Go to your local LCs and just flip through the back issues of X-Men and Batman and whatever and think to yourself -- these comics blew away any indie comics' sales by a massive margin, no matter how much better it was.
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Jeff
IMWAN Mod |
Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:06 pm |
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The Modfather; Wizard of WAN
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You're not following me. It's not "I only buy X-Men no matter how shitty it is"; it's "I only buy X-Men because I like the characters. I have lots of time invested in reading about them". (I don't buy X-Men, and never have really...it's just the franchise with probably the most loyal following and so my example group)
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Li'l Jay
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:06 pm |
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It scorched
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Joined: | 28 May 2006 |
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There is an existing set of buyers who are older who collect by character. They're out there.
Comics are at a the end of a long period of declining sales, where they failed to reach new buyers, i.e. young buyers.
As we move through the timeline, that "existing set that collects characters" is still there, not bothering anybody. But they look bigger by proportion. Their presence highlights the failures of the comic book industry to develop a new readership.
When it was the the right time to hit the panic button and get their product out there, the comics industry instead chose to raise prices and direct their efforts towards getting existing buyers to buy more comics.
Now they're kind of stuck -- a pricing model that is a complete turn off to new buyers, and a distribution strategy that is all buy unvailable to new buyers.
It's not like print is doing well anyway, so it's understandable. But the "character buyers" are just shining a spotlight on the fact that everything else around them shrunk.
_________________ Rom's kiss turned Rogue a hero.
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Monk
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:07 pm |
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It's a stereotype, but I do think comic fandom has a pretty large segment of collectors who, regardless of how much they complain, will continue to buy certain books. I can't really understand buying stuff you don't actually like, and hesitating to try something new by people that you do like.
_________________ Daily art blog Very Short Drawings
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Ocean Doot
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:15 pm |
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Dendritic Oscillating Ontological Tesseract
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Joined: | 25 Oct 2007 |
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Jeff wrote: You're not following me. It's not "I only buy X-Men no matter how shitty it is"; it's "I only buy X-Men because I like the characters. I have lots of time invested in reading about them. This comic has not been good in years, but I will continue to buy and read them, then go online and complain about how they haven't been good in years." Fixed. And really, if this is different from Hanzo's characterization, it's arguably even less defensible.
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Rafael
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:16 pm |
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Traveler
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Jeff wrote: You're not following me. It's not "I only buy X-Men no matter how shitty it is"; it's "I only buy X-Men because I like the characters. I have lots of time invested in reading about them". I'm honestly not seeing the difference there.
_________________ Are you ready? Are you ready to jump right off the edge of everything?
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James C. Taylor
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:21 pm |
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a k a LightningMan, lover of bountiful pulchritude
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For all of the remaining fanboys who slavishly follow X-Men (or JLA, or Batman, or...) from morass to morass, there is a larger number of people who aren't buying but would buy comics featuring said character or characters if they weren't mired in a morass.
When I buy a comic book, it'll almost always be a character I already like. But I stopped buying shit just because my favorite character was mired in it a long time ago.
_________________ Affecting the universe...with my mind!
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Bolgani Gogo
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:28 pm |
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Li'l Jay wrote: There is an existing set of buyers who are older who collect by character. They're out there.
Comics are at a the end of a long period of declining sales, where they failed to reach new buyers, i.e. young buyers.
As we move through the timeline, that "existing set that collects characters" is still there, not bothering anybody. But they look bigger by proportion. Their presence highlights the failures of the comic book industry to develop a new readership.
When it was the the right time to hit the panic button and get their product out there, the comics industry instead chose to raise prices and direct their efforts towards getting existing buyers to buy more comics.
Now they're kind of stuck -- a pricing model that is a complete turn off to new buyers, and a distribution strategy that is all buy unvailable to new buyers.
It's not like print is doing well anyway, so it's understandable. But the "character buyers" are just shining a spotlight on the fact that everything else around them shrunk. I agree with this. Those people who are still buying Batman, X-Men, etc. are the hardest of the hardcores. There are new readers, but they are reading trades and they aren't buying super-heroes: From viewtopic.php?f=1&t=70907&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=tanking&start=132TOP 20 TRADE SALES 2010 (Bookscan, does not include comic stores) 168,330 -- DORK DIARIES 126,558 -- TWILIGHT GRAPHIC NOVEL V1 124,808 -- ADV OF OOK & GLUK KUNG FU CAVEMEN 90,664 -- SCOTT PILGRIM V 1 72,703 -- SCOTT PILGRIM V 2 70,393 -- SCOTT PILGRIM V 6 64,238 -- SCOTT PILGRIM V 3 62,720 -- SCOTT PILGRIM V 4 59,805 -- SCOTT PILGRIM V 5 53,155 -- NARUTO V47 42,917 -- NARUTO V48 41,949 -- BONE OUT FROM BONEVILLE 38,378 -- KICK ASS PREMIERE 34,948 -- BIG NATE FROM THE TOP 34,376 -- MAUS I 33,292 -- WALKING DEAD V1 DAYS GONE BYE 29,656 -- BLACK BUTLER V1 29,171 -- WALKING DEAD COMPENDIUM 1 29,171 -- WATCHMEN 28,943 -- EXILE AN OUTLANDER GRAPHIC NOV Top $$ Publishers excluding manga: 1. DC (96 titles in the Top 750, for 648k units, and nearly $12.5m in retail dollars.) 2. Scholastic 3. Oni Press (thanks to Scott Pilgrim) 4. Random House 5. Image (22 placing books in the Top 750, for some 289k copies.) 6. Marvel (33 titles in the Top 750, for 206k units) 7. Simon & Schuster 8. Dark Horse Comics (29 titles on the Western side, for about 183k in sales.) 9. Hatchette 10. Andrews McNeel Top DC trades of 2010: 1. Watchmen (29K) 2. V For Vendetta (21K) 3. Blackest Night (20K) 4. Superman Earth One (20K) 5. Batman Killing Joke (17K) Top Marvel trades of 2010 1. Kick Ass HC (38K) 2. Dark Tower: The Fall of Gilead (16K) 3. Halo: Helljumper HC (9K) 4. Civil War TP (7K) 5. Old Man Logan HC (7K)
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That meddlin kid
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:37 pm |
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Biker Librarian
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Li'l Jay wrote: There is an existing set of buyers who are older who collect by character. They're out there.
Comics are at a the end of a long period of declining sales, where they failed to reach new buyers, i.e. young buyers.
As we move through the timeline, that "existing set that collects characters" is still there, not bothering anybody. But they look bigger by proportion. Their presence highlights the failures of the comic book industry to develop a new readership. That seems to be it. Such fans can be seen in other media as well, but they're more prominent in the shrunken superhero market. I said on the "character or writer" thread that I tended to follow characters because I was a kid at heart when it came to these comics and kids tend to follow characters. What I don't understand is continuing to buy something (Especially at today's price points!) well after it has apparently ceased to give pleasure. Maybe a lot of fans just like to gripe and are really enjoying them more than they care to let on. Or at least their enjoyment level hasn't fallen to the point where they're ready to give up the habit of buying certain characters each month.
_________________ The kingdom of heaven is like a merchant seeking fine pearls who, when he found an especially costly one, sold everything he had to buy it.
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Wayne Osborne
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:48 pm |
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Shakespeare, you say? And I have to type how long?
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It's the same reason people still watch the same soap opera year after year. You get invested with the characters and will suffer through periods of shitty stories (or art) because you care about what happens to them over the quality of the presentation.
Plus, there's always the hope that it (writing and art) will get better. Because if you're in it for the long haul, you've been through creative ups and downs before.
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Bolgani Gogo
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:49 pm |
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Interesting article on this at:http://www.comicsbeat.com/2011/03/04/can-comics-support-truly-new-characters Quote: I look at the new Blue Beetle, which was really well done and really entertaining, even though it didn’t sell at all. The new things in the universe are pretty much impossible, and new things out of the universe are pretty unlikely, because people won’t try new things.
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Hanzo the Razor
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:51 pm |
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Ancient Alien Theorist
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Wayne Osborne wrote: It's the same reason people still watch the same soap opera year after year. You get invested with the characters and will suffer through periods of shitty stories (or art) because you care about what happens to them over the quality of the presentation.
Plus, there's always the hope that it (writing and art) will get better. Because if you're in it for the long haul, you've been through creative ups and downs before. Right, I get sticking with something to a certain degree -- but not trying out something new and better? Would sticking with a TV Show prevent you from trying another one that you've heard good things about?
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Beachy
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:51 pm |
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Mr. IMWANKO
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Like James said, I like eating chicken. Chicken is my favorite food. Sometimes I eat fried chicken, sometimes I eat baked chicken, and sometimes I try something a little different like chicken soup, or chicken salad, or teriyaki chicken, or whatever.
I like chicken.
And there are a lot of things out there that people tell me "tastes like chicken," but why would I buy that when I can have chicken?
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Bolgani Gogo
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:53 pm |
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Hanzo the Razor wrote: Wayne Osborne wrote: It's the same reason people still watch the same soap opera year after year. You get invested with the characters and will suffer through periods of shitty stories (or art) because you care about what happens to them over the quality of the presentation.
Plus, there's always the hope that it (writing and art) will get better. Because if you're in it for the long haul, you've been through creative ups and downs before. Right, I get sticking with something to a certain degree -- but not trying out something new and better? Would sticking with a TV Show prevent you from trying another one that you've heard good things about? Sure, if it was $3/episode.
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Beachy
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:53 pm |
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Mr. IMWANKO
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Mahoney
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:54 pm |
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Champion of Everything
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You buy what you know.
I bought Secret Wars first because of Spider-Man and His Amazing Friends. I still pick up an occasional GI Joe, or Transformer because of the cartoon.
I slowly moved out from there. It was either through recommendations or getting to know a character that I would then buy their book. Took a year or two before I started getting X-Men. Even though It is one of the largest in my collection.
It was rare to spend $1 now $4 on a complete unknown. Most people I would think, would rather buy what they know.
With the internet it is much easier to get information on other series and recommendations, probably why independent comics are doing better. But the default behavior is to play it safe.
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Wayne Osborne
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Post subject: So, what's with comic book fans and established characters? Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:55 pm |
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Shakespeare, you say? And I have to type how long?
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Bolgani Gogo wrote: Hanzo the Razor wrote: Wayne Osborne wrote: It's the same reason people still watch the same soap opera year after year. You get invested with the characters and will suffer through periods of shitty stories (or art) because you care about what happens to them over the quality of the presentation.
Plus, there's always the hope that it (writing and art) will get better. Because if you're in it for the long haul, you've been through creative ups and downs before. Right, I get sticking with something to a certain degree -- but not trying out something new and better? Would sticking with a TV Show prevent you from trying another one that you've heard good things about? Sure, if it was $3/episode. And you only had a certain amount of money to spend on either one. Yes.
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