From a recent panel discussion between Jeff Smith and Scott McCloud:

”Are we in agreement that we have probably the strongest generation of young cartoonists that we’ve ever seen in comics?” McCloud asked him.

“Absolutely,” Smith said, then added enthusiastically, “and there’s women!” to laughs from the audience.

“I don’t mean to sound lecherous,” he said, smiling. “I’m just really pleased.”

But was it necessary to throw out three-fourths of the older guys to make room for these youngsters?

See, here's where we disagree. I deny that older guys were ever "thrown out". Adapt or die, that's my motto.

You bet I disagree. What about the ones like Herb Trimpe, who adapted and did everything they asked, including drawing like Liefeld ( ), yet Marvel let him go anyway?

I wonder if that will still be your motto if you're ever in a position like he was.

Herb Trimpe's doing some stuff for Marvel now.

And that makes up for over ten years on Marvel's "do not call" list in what way?

Since we're diametrically opposed on this subject, I'm gonna back out now. Your thread, sir.

I don't know if I'd say better, but I think what's defined as "mainstream" is far more diverse than it's ever been, and I think there are folks who are definitely as talented as just about anyone who's come along before (folks like David Aja and Marcos Martin, for example). I don't know the political ins and outs of why some folks get work and others don't, so I don't know how much of it is market-based and how much of it is truly generational.

Monk said it better than I ever could.

Sorry, Kevin, we'll have to agree to disagree, but no hard feelings, OK? I've long had this not at all popular opinion that most situations where creators found themselves out of work for long periods of time are not because of ageism or blacklisting or "lets get all these old guys out". Some of it was, but a lot of it is the creators not trying hard enough, to put it bluntly, or holding inappropriate grudges. Especially today, when there's more work for everyone. A lot of vets are getting gigs now. And they don't even have to change their style to do it.

Some of 'em tried for awhile in the late '90s and then got other gigs, whether full time somewhere or advertising or whatever, and then never really got back to comics when the net was wider again.

Trimpe's a good guy. His situation is different than most because he was actually on staff with Marvel, something they don't really do much of anymore, and he ran right into the late '90s comic implosion. It was a bad situation.

For those situations where name recognition actually does work against a veteran creator, I wish that these creators could easily adopt a pseudonym and just let the work speak for itself.

Depends whom they're talking about. If they mean what's at DC and Marvel today, there's probably never been a sorrier bunch overall (with some wonderful exceptions of course). In general? I'm not sure one can ever say an entire generation is fundamentally better ... they're probably mixing up the number of opportunities to get one's work in the marketplace that the Internet affords to everyone with an actual increase in talent. We can't know how many great talents simply never got their feet in the door back when the whole industry was a tiny handful of companies controlled by a tiny handful of guys.

A lot of the new stuff is better than its ever been, yes. Certainly the coloring and production. A lot less mistakes made in the plotting and dialogue than in the 60s. Some of it is not as good. Some of it is simple taste.

As for the old guys, some may have been blacklisted (although, damn do a lot of these old guys trash talk other guys What do you expect?) to an extent.

But a lot of it is simple times a changing.

Take movies. When I was a kid, Stallone and Arnold were the coolest of the cool. Not Steve McQueen or Paul Newman, or whoever.

and now Stallone and Arnold are not cool.

It's just the way of things.

Few people remain on top for decades in any entertainment medium. The old fans get burned out-or they want their favorites to never change and adapt. The new fans want their own guys.

Byrne pushed Swan out. and Byrne has been pushed out. and someone will push out Bendis and Millar and all the rest one day.

Guys like Quesada work for today's times. and one day, his style as EIC won't work and there will be someone knew.

and the people then will say "Rememeber Quesada's Marvel? That was a golden age"

and so it goes.

I'm pushing Steinbrenner out.

Well, I buy and read fewer comics today than I ever did. So, I guess The New Stuff, taken as a whole, is not better for me.

I'm reading fewer books than I did in college, when I really could have used the money for something more productive....like tuition, housing, and food.

Meanwhile, that amount of time I spend reading things OTHER than comics has only increased.

I'm reading and buying more comics than ever...but it's almost all older stuff that I missed the first time around for various reasons. You know, like "not born yet". Current stuff I have really enjoyed is few and far between. All-Star Superman. Brubaker Cap. Iron Man Extremis. Some of the Dini 'Tec stories. Fables. A few others.

I see. They're saying that the new guys are actually blowing away the old guys in quality. You're saying that there's just MORE talent overall (since there's so much more opportunity) and therefore there are more quality artists out of there due to sheer numbers (but also more bad artists!)

I'm with Jeff - I'm picking and choosing stuff these days. I really enjoyed The Complete Bone because I never finished the comics way back when.

I do have to give JQ props for letting DeFalco have his own sandbox to tell stories in his own style. He even seems to have given up trying to cancel ASG every 6 months, now that the digests have given them a decent way to market it.

I always took the cancellation threats for Spider-Girl as a way to motivate the fanbase and get the book some needed attention. Both Quesada and DeFalco have said that SG is one of Quesada's favorite books.

Marvel can't employ EVERYONE.

I have to agree with John Byrne here-- Marvel didn't push Herb Trimpe out, the fans did. If fans scooped up Herb's work like they did Jim Lee's or Joe Madureira's, Herb would still be riding high. They're not going to kick out a guy that sells books.

I read yesterday (thanks Monk!) that Marvel put out around 82 to books this past January. You and I both know there's far more artists that want work from Marvel than just 82-- which means Marvel's got to make some choices-- they have to pick, from the thousands of guys out there, the artists they believe will sell as many comic books as possible. Herb apparently isn't on that list, sadly.

And what about the new guys? Is it fair that a talented new comer who can sell more books than an old pro can't get a job because Marvel decides its just going to stick with the guys they already have?

...forgiveness for missing deadlines has made things A LOT easier for the young artists and writers today...

I do tend to agree with Monk and Hanzo on this though. There are a plethora of styles and approaches out their now (which I like) and the stuff that sells will be published (which is fair).

Of course, tastes are hard to figure out. It's funny. I find most Silver Age stuff to be very stiff (thinking DC here), but at least it has charm and is generally solid. On the flip side, a lot of new stuff replaces substance for flash and often tends to be too fluid (for the sake of being fluid). Maybe that's an Image hangover.

Today's artists are much weaker story-tellers generally.

Hmm, I think storytelling has mainly suffered over the years. The a good portion of the new artists just don't tell a clear story. So, maybe technically they are better than some old guys, (though I'd like to see the new guy who could draw with John Buscema or Joe Kubert.) and the technology of making comics is leagues better, comics are harder to read.