So, I'm going to try my hand at one of these revisit/recap/review thread thingies. I have enjoyed following along with Ocean Doot's own thread where he revisits Chris Claremont's run on Fantastic Four, even though I never read it myself, as well as Jilerb's threads revisiting Star Trek: The Next Generation and now Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. I have found myself wanting to take a crack at it too, wondering if I am up to the challenge or not. Do I have anything worthwhile or interesting to say about anything for an extended period of time? Guess we'll find out.

As I mentioned in Doot's thread, I'm going to tackle the Fantastic Four myself, specifically the era of writer Jonathan Hickman that ran for about 3 years, 2009 to 2012. It's one of my favorite creative runs in superhero comics of my adult life, as difficult as it could be to read and follow at times. But before I get to that, I'm going to start with the 16-issue run by Mark Millar and Bryan Hitch preceding it, as it introduces some characters and concepts that Hickman would build on, and also because the Millar/Hitch run is the start of my unbroken Fantastic Four collection that continues to this day (trade collections for the Millar/Hitch issues and the first 4 Hickman books, and then single issues the rest of the way).

Note: I don't mean to put Hickman solely on a pedestal by referring to this era as Hickman's alone, but he worked with several artists over the course of his run so it doesn't feel natural to me to pair his name with a single artist like Lee/Kirby, Waid/Ringo, Claremont/LaRocca, Millar/Hitch, and so on. For better or worse, this is the Hickman era, but I don't mean to disparage the importance of the artists involved, some of whom did absolutely stellar work illustrating Hickman's tales (and some...not so much).

So...I can't guarantee that I will see this through to completion, but I'm gonna give it a shot. The Hickman run will encompass close to 60 issues and the Millar/Hitch stuff before it another 16. Plus there is the 5-issue Dark Reign: Fantastic Four mini-series written by Hickman which I will be reading for the first time for the purposes of this thread, and a couple of Annuals as well, so potentially this thread will ultimately cover over 80 issues worth of comics, making this thread potentially extremely embarrassing if I crap out after 10 issues or less, which wouldn't even have me making it to the first Hickman issue.

As I mentioned in Doot's thread, I can't actually start right away anyway...for space reasons, I keep part of my comic collection in my old bedroom back at the family farm in South Dakota, including most of my Fantastic Four single issues and trades. So, I don't have access to the comics in question at the moment, but I should by the end of the week, as I'm planning a trip home to see the family now for a late celebration of my birthday now that both my parents have had the Covid vaccine.

My plan is to not post any recaps/reviews until I have at least 4 of them completely written and ready to post together...that would be the first 4-issue story arc of the Millar/Hitch run, all at once. And then after that I can hopefully maintain a pace of covering an average of 3 issues a week. I am in awe at the amount of writing---both the wordcount and the post frequency---Doot and Jilerb produce in their own threads, and I know I will not match that output no matter how much fun I am hopefully having writing my own posts.

So, that's the plan. I'm going to make one more post in this thread later today talking 'bout my own thoughts and feelings on the Fantastic Four in general as a preview of what's to come, and then barring any discussion this post may entail, I'll let the thread go dark until my first batch of posts is ready to go.

Oy....I led off 2 separate paragraphs with the same phrase, "As I mentioned in Doot's thread". Not off to a good start, Plum.

I enjoyed the Millar/Hitch run quite a bit. I faded on the Hickman run. Did not enjoy.

I will turn you around. Have faith.

I quoted you about Hickman in my FF thread, FYI.

This is gonna be a cool thread.

Cool ! I look forward to reading this.
This was one of the last comic runs I was somewhat reading.

Looking forward to this, Plum!

Thanks for the kind words, everyone. I hope I don't let you down.

I love the Fantastic Four, and I have for as long as I can remember.

But it's only really in the last decade that I became a regular reader of "The World's Greatest Comic Magazine". My affection for them was mostly borne, rathe, out of my being a huge Spider-Man fan as a kid. Spidey was my favorite in the late 70s and through the 80s until I drifted away from comics for awhile in high school when girls became a lot more interesting. In the early 80s, I'd had a small Pocket Books volume reprinting the first 6 issues of the original Stan Lee/Steve Ditko issues of Amazing Spider-Man, and those 6 issues featured 2 guest appearances of the Fantastic Four (#1 and #5) plus one by just the Human Torch (#3). I loved all these comics, and coincidentally the series Marvel Tales began reprinting the Lee/Ditko Spider-Man comics as well, which contained still more guest appearances of the Fantastic Four and especially the Human Torch, who at one point showed up in 3 out 5 issues of ASM. Understandably, Stan loved playing the 2 teenaged superheroes off of each other.

So, I LOVED the FF, but I never really read the FF much in those days, at least not in their own title. I think up until the aforementioned point in high school when I drifted away from comics, I only ever owned 3 or 4 issues of their own comic book, but I really, really loved when one or all of them would show up in something else I was reading. The closest I came to reading the Fantastic Four was through the old Marvel Saga series, which sought to retell the entire history of the Marvel Universe in chronological order with lengthy excerpts of the comics involved interspersed with narration written by Marvel historian Peter Sanderson. I was obsessed with that series, and most thrilling of all were the Fantastic Four stories in that book.

I didn't know the term "flagship" as a boy, but if I did, I would have assumed that Fantastic Four was Marvel's flagship title, because it definitely seemed the most important. I was of course aware that the FF were the first Marvel superhero title, and the foundation the whole universe was built on, but, I don't know, they just seemed bigger than everything else, even the Avengers, which seemed to be the 2nd most important book (I knew very little about the X-Men through most of the 80s...they seemed to be on the opposite side of the Marvel universe as my beloved Spidey, and they seemed kind of creepy to me somehow). I did end up reading the first year or so of the Thing ongoing series scripted by Byrne, but lost interest when he stayed out in space following the big Secret Wars series. So, yeah, I just never really read the FF, but then I wasn't into superhero team comics much then anyway, aside from reprints of the old Legion of Super-Heroes comics DC was reprinting in their digests back then.

When I got back into comics in college thanks to one of my friends, it was mostly as a DC guy, but I did check in on Marvel now and then. Over the years I probably picked up 6-8 issues of Fantastic Four during the unfortunate Tom DeFalco/Paul Ryan run. Pretty much all of the issues I bought were not at the comic shop, but purchases at the gas station just off campus, during various "I've already been to the comic book shop this week but am itching for something else to read" moments. Speaking of which, remember when you could buy pretty much all of Marvel and DC's mainstream superhero comics at the gas station? Good times.

But I usually found these comics depressing, and more than a little embarrassing, like Sue's FF costume being pretty close to just being a bikini at one point. It was the days when it was all about the X-books and the edgy heroes (and anti-heroes) like Wolverine, Venom, Ghost Rider, Punisher, etc. The FF still wore the banner "The World's Greatest Comic Magazine" on every issue, but not even Marvel seemed to believe it. The FF slid far, far down in Marvel's hierarchy into irrelevance, and the Marvel Universe sure didn't revolve around the team anymore (they certainly weren't alone---it's hard to remember, but The Avengers was basically being written by interns at that point before the big Heroes Reborn event).

I wasn't thrilled when the big Heroes Reborn event was announced, but I'll admit I probably still would have checked out the FF book if it weren't by Jim Lee---I don't deny his talent, but I've never been a fan. Still, I at least welcomed the news that Marvel was trying to make some of its most iconic characters relevant again, and not just the FF. I did buy the next Fantastic Four #1, the Heroes Return issue by Scott Lobdell and Alan Davis, and really enjoyed it---it was probably the closest thing since John Byrne that made the FF feel truly awesome the way I had always believed them to be, but I didn't stick around for whatever reason.

It really wasn't until the Jonathan Hickman run that I'll be covering in this thread that I finally became a regular reader of Marvel's original superhero team, and even then I came in fairly late, with the big "death" issue in issue #587 which on first reading, completely out of context of what led up to it, admittedly left me very underwhelmed and unmoved. You can trust me when I say that I had an entirely different reaction when I read it in the context of the rest of Hickman's run, but we'll get to that issue eventually, I hope. A few months later, when Marvel launched the first issue of FF (NOT Fantastic Four, but FF) featuring Spider-Man as a regular cast member, I jumped on board. However, even for a first issue FF was not very new reader-accessible, but for some reason, instead of just giving up and focusing on other comics I enjoyed more, I dug in. I found all the trade paperback collections of Hickman's Fantastic Four up to that point, and picked up the two collections of the Mark Millar/Bryan Hitch run preceding it for good measure.

And that was when it all became magic for me. Not just Hickman's work, but the whole Fantastic Four mythos in general. I mean, I'd already loved it, but it was like I loved it from a distance. Now I was fully immersed in it.

I stuck with the monthly issues of FF, and when the regular Fantastic Four title returned about a year later to run concurrently with it, I followed both books. And so I've continued to this day, buying every new issue of Fantastic Four, including 3 separate relaunches and a relaunch of the FF book as well, not to mention the yearlong Marvel 2-in-1 series that led into the current edition penned by Dan Slott which I have mixed feelings about.

And I'm still genuinely grappling with what the Fantastic Four's place is within Marvel...both the comic and the team. They are the cornerstone of the Marvel Universe, and yet aside from the high sales Jim Lee briefly gave them, it feels like ever since Byrne's run they have only ever been 3rd tier in terms of popularity and sales, with maybe some occasional time a little higher than that. You could definitely argue that historically they are still Marvel's most important comic book, but they have definitely not felt like the main characters in the overall Marvel saga in a long, long, long time. They are not the engine of Marvel Comics anymore.

The movie adaptations, none of which I've ever seen more than once, certainly didn't help. The mid-2000s movies were just goofily forgettable, while the 2015 version by Josh Trank was a disaster all-around. Honestly, at this point, how could you convince a moviegoer who loves superhero movies like the Marvel Cinematic Universe or Christopher Nolan's Dark Knight trilogy but never read any comics that the Fantastic Four are great? How important and awesome can the FF seem to outsiders? How important and awesome do they even seem to kids who start reading superhero comics now?

I mean, I know a lot of it was spite at Fox and not wanting to promote their 2015 film, but even so, the fact that Marvel was willing to actually stop publishing the Fantastic Four for a few years is....something, isn't it? I know the X-Men and Spider-Man sales aren't what they were back in the day either, but all the same, you gotta figure that if FF was one of their highest-selling books, it never would have happened. When Marvel brought the FF to a close at the conclusion of James Robinson's run in 2015, I genuinely thought it would never come back. The characters would still be around and could make occasional guest appearances here and there, but I didn't think the Fantastic Four would return as a comic book series. I'm glad I was wrong, but I think I remember reading that during Robinson's tenure---hardly an obscure name---sales were down to like 25,000-30,000 an issue. The Fantastic Four? How could this be?

But they're back and despite my mixed feelings on Slott's issues, they're thankfully still going. I don't think the Fantastic Four are ever going to be what they once were, even within the diminished expectations of the current comic book marketplace---granted, I don't sales figures for any comics anymore, including Slott's FF, but I don't think FF will ever be Marvel's top-selling book again.

Did they just become too earnest in the 90s when edgy heroes reigned supreme? Did people just want a superhero team and not an ever-expanding superhero family? Has it been the lack of a creative team that could capture the interest of the broader comic audience the way Byrne did in the 80s? Certainly the book has had some great talent on it at times post-Byrne, but it has just never had that widespread appeal since then, I don't think. Even during my beloved Hickman run I think it remained a 2nd-tier book in terms of sales despite significant buzz.

But anyway...I love the Fantastic Four, although admittedly I've probably only read maybe a third of it. Between Masterworks and the long-lamented Essentials, I've read the first half of the original Lee-Kirby stories, and a few scattered reprints of other Lee-Kirby and Lee-Buscema issues. I have the majority of Byrne's run via the Marvel Visionaries collections, except for the last volume or two, and have Walt Simonson's run on FF via Visionaries as well. I've also accumulated 15-20 issues of the DeFalco/Ryan run, determined to find something in it to latch onto (reader, I have failed), and then of course that sole #1 issue of the Heroes Return relaunch (I also bought a bundle of the first 5 issues of Fantastic Four Unlimited from the mid-90s some years back, but let us never speak of those horrid, horrid comics again). That was it. But between trades and single issues, I have an uninterrupted run of the title going back to Fantastic Four #554 in the spring of 2008, the first issue of Millar/Hitch. Hardly as big as my Batman collection, but that ain't bad.

I love all four of the characters, honestly, but my favorite is Johnny Storm. I'm not 100% sure why...I guess I could say it's maybe some psychological reason, as he is the one I am least like, but in reality I suppose it's just because he showed up in my Spider-Man stories countless times in my formative years, in both the contemporary comics and the reprints of the '60s ones.

Weirdly, I rarely ever think of the characters by their superhero names, with the occasional exception of the Thing. I never think of Batman in costume as "Bruce", or Superman as "Clark", or Spider-Man as "Peter", and so on, but for me, the Fantastic Four are Reed, Sue, Ben, and Johnny. And I'll mostly be referring to them as such throughout this thread.

But you know what I love most about the Fantastic Four? Even more than the great powers, the relatable characters and their oh-so-human interactions and relationships with each other, the sometimes-great costumes, Galactus, the Silver Surfer, Namor and Atlantis, the Watcher, the Inhumans, the Black Panther and Wakanda, and all the other truly mind-bending concepts and alternate realities and imagination the title has given us at its best over its history...

...I think what I really, really love best about the FF is Doctor Doom.

When Doom is being handled well, there is no more compelling or terrifying villain in comics. More than the Joker or Lex Luthor or the various Goblins or Darkseid or any other iconic villain, Doom at his best reigns supreme. And even when he may not be written particularly well, just seeing that armored visage in a comic book panel still gives me a little thrill. I still dream of a movie adaptation completely nailing the character in a way that shows how truly, truly awesome he is, and by extension how awesome his iconic enemies are as well. We shall see.

All right, enough of my rambling, as I don't think I really conveyed what I set out to say anyway. Sorry. But sometime next week hopefully we'll start talkin' FF comics...first Millar/Hitch as an appetizer, and then Hickman as the main course. I'll try to make it worth the time of anyone who might read it.

But remember....all hope lies in Doom.

Good stuff!

I think you might enjoy the last part of the Claremont FF run, as it is so Doom-centric.

Questions:

Did you read Scioli's Fantastic Four: Grand Design?

Have you seen Scioli's suggestion that the way to approach an FF movie is to do a "Forrest Gump" structure where you see a whole bunch of adventures happening to them over the decades? I mocked the idea (here, on IMWAN) when I first heard it, but the more I think on it, the more I find myself agreeing.

And following-up on that, one last question:

Have you seen the solicits for "Fantastic Four: Life Story"? It sounds like someone decided to do Scioli's idea as a comic: FF in real time over the decades, with their adventures summarized. I realize that it's just an extrapolation of "Spider-Man: Life Story," but the idea of applying that approach to the Fantastic Four made me immediately think of Scioli's "Gump" suggestion. I confess, I am intrigued. I may just pick it up.

Would that be by the same Christopher Claremont who let Arcade strike a match against Doom's armor, thusly disrespecting the character just as much as if he had poured a bucket of goat diarrhea over him? It is to laugh, sir.

But yes, reading your thread on the Claremont FF got me intrigued by all the Doomy goodness.




I have not, haven't heard of it actually. Good stuff?



Hmm...it's an intriguing idea. I'm not sure if I agree with it on first ponderance either, but maybe after I think on it a bit. It feels like such an approach would make it hard to do proper characterization for 4 main characters over multiple decades the way you could focusing on a single character like Forrest Gump. But I suppose the right filmmaker could pull it off.

I suppose at this point I can also say that as much as I have enjoyed the two MCU Spider-Man movies under his helm, I'm not at all convinced that Jon Watts is the guy to finally do the FF justice on screen. I definitely hope I am wrong.



No, I haven't seen this either. Is the premise going to have them start in the 60s and basically have them age in real time to the present, or when does it begin? I haven't read "Spider-Man: Life Story" either, so don't know how it all works. I used to read solicitations quite regularly, especially DC, but nowadays I usually only find out about new titles if there are house ads for them in comics I already buy or my friend at the comic shop recommends them.

Sweeeet.


It is! I wasn't sure if I would like it. But I liked it. I believe Simon, Hanzo and Marcus have read it too. They have shared opinions on it here, on IMWAN.


That's true, it could potentially end up become too focused on one single character. I can imagine it becoming all about Reed with the other three as supporting characters. (Claremont's FF was in danger of becoming that way, at times.)


The main reason I came around on it was that superhero movies just feel like they're becoming more and more ubiquitous but also stale. The "Gump" model seemed like something that would stand out, and feel special. Something to make the FF seem exceptional, which they should. And after three failures by people who were trying to do a more conventional superhero movie about the team ... hey, why not? (I actually didn't totally hate that the first of the two Evans/Alba ones, but ... still.)


I'm calling it right now: It's gonna suck. If it ever even happens.


I believe so. Spider-Man: Life Story was the first one. Peter Parker got his powers in 1962, and then each issue afterward was set in a different decade, with him and the rest of the cast aging in real time. But the stories were still from the correct decade. So issue 2: 1970s, death of Gwen. Issue 3: 1980s, symbiote and Kraven's Last Hunt (probably wedding to Mary Jane too). Issue 4: 1990s, clone stuff. Etc. I didn't read it, but I found the concept fascinating enough to page through at the store. Chip Zdarsky wrote it.

Mark Russell is writing the FF one. I think it is the same concept: one decade per issue, starting in the Sixties. But a different writer opens up possibilities. The Spider-Man one got really mixed reviews. I get the impression that the consensus is that Zdarsky didn't pull it off entirely; it just felt too much like he was doing a summary of old Spidey comics, and it didn't stand on its own as a self-contained story. Maybe the FF one will succeed where the Spidey one did not. One never knows. It's like a box of chocolates, in a way. That analogy just came to me.

I own every issue of Fantastic Four from #55 up.
DrDoom65 is my eBay username.
Maybe I could do a Engleheart Pineapple Thing FF thread (the only time I ever stopped buying FF, but I went back and bought them all.)

I'd be interested in that one too. I didn't love what I read of that run, but ... I did grow up with Pineapple Thing.

I worked for a manager at AT&T who was Hickman's cousin.

Prof I'd recommend reading Scioli's FF Grand Design so you can say you've done so...but I really wasn't a fan. In theory Scioli seems like the perfect choice for that project but the result was hugely disappointing, IMO.

You really should read all the Kirby/Lee run before you FF:Grand Design. There has never been a better FF than Kirby/Lee, especially when Joe Sinnott joins the team.

Good news: I have ze comics! Including, via eBay, the Dark Reign: Fantastic Four limited series which I will be reading for the purposes of this thread.

Bad news: I may have to delay digging in for another week or two yet. I will be on the road for a week and a half starting Thursday with limited writing time. I might be able to recap/review at least one issue before I go but I planned to not post any until I had the first 4 done. We'll see.

It will be worth the wait.

I feel it in my being.

I hope so.

Just write while driving!