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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 9:31 am 
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Palmer is probably my favourite inker on my all time art hero, Neal Adams. I also loved his inking on early John Buscema Avengers, and on such things as Gene Colan's Dracula - for a while there he was, to my mind, the best inker Marvel had. However, when I picked up Hidden Years as a loyal member of the JBF in 2004 or so, I found that I didn't like his newer, more feathery style. Using my Marvel Unlimited membership to read comics I haven't read before, I find that this feathery style goes back pretty far - Im reading (and enjoying) Bob Harras and Steve Epting's Galactic Storm storyline and while I like Epting's layouts and figure work (this is the first art of his I have seen) I find Palmer's inks to be quite poor.

When did he first change to this kind of inking?
Or am I mad, and he always inked in that way?
Here is an example of what I mean. Compare this:

Image

To this:

Image


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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 10:23 am 
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Well, what I think happens to the better inkers that can also draw (Palmer, Sinnott, Anderson, etc.) is that that they are tasked to finish loose layouts and fix inferior pencils. Especially later in their careers. So, that the inkers style can dominate over the penciller. Epting was early in his career on that page, plus it was the 90s when extra lines and busy looking work was the norm. Palmer inked a lot of beginning artists pencils. Don't forget, in Hidden Years Palmer made Byrne look like a professional artist again.

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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 2:09 pm 
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But that's exactly it, mate, I don't think he did! I didn't like the Hidden Years inks at all, as I said in my post - I think he made Byrne's tight line look sketchy, and I wasn't impressed. I think Byrne - doing his best Adams impression - was expecting a different result too, if I recall his own comments correctly. Something to the effect of Tom no longer being TOM PALMER by that time in his career. Do you think his inks just as good as ever by that time, if he wasn't being asked to sort out beginner errors as you say?


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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:07 pm 
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I possibly think that he was fixing Byrne as Byrne's pencils weren't what they were. It looked about the same as his inks did when Palmer inked Byrne on that Silver Surfer one-shot in the 80s.

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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:19 am 
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I think Palmer was still producing very good work, but perhaps just not the kind of "fan favorite" work that readers usually enjoy -- I've noticed a good chunk of fans prefer very tight and "delicate" inking styles and Palmer moved away from that. It reminds me of Klaus Janson, in the sense that what he wants to explore as an artist isn't what fans want from their inkers.

I don't think Byrne ever looked like he wasn't a professional, even with some of the faults of his later work... and other than the slanted panels, his work looked the same as always, not very Neal Adams-esque. While I'd be the first to agree these aren't as beautiful as the John Buscema Avengers work Tom did with Buscema, it's still very good work on its own terms.

I certainly understand preferring the old stuff, but to say his work is "poor" is too harsh, IMO. Taking a deep look at the work, he's clearly in full control of abilities -- his tastes just don't seem to match yours anymore.

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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:28 am 
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Looking at his second Avengers run with Big John, it looks like he's going for an Al Williamson look on his inks. I think at this point, he came to favor the looser, more organic brush line than the very controlled one he used in his earlier years. I know a lot of artists actually prefer this kind of work, feeling it's got a sense of spontaneity and life to it that tighter inks don't. (Hence the popularity of Joe Kubert among artists.)

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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:30 am 
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You can see Palmer making this transition in the 70s with Buscema... here's some Captain Britain stuff they did from 1977.

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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 10:35 am 
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And here's the fan favorite work... generally, thinner lines and a tighter approach. Still, you can tell the same mentality is there regarding blacks and overall thinking.

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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 12:03 pm 
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Also, John Buscema's work was getting looser and looser by the 80s, so TP was doing more drawing with ink.

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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:39 am 
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Yeah, poor was probably the wrong word. But I really don't like it as an artistic direction for him. He was awesome.


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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:39 am 
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http://www.tcj.com/an-interview-with-tom-palmer/

Interesting interview

Quote:
Mike played poker each week with a group of comic book guys and gave my name to one of the players, Sol Brodsky, who was the production manager for Marvel at the time, and I went up to see him with my work. My first job was pencilling a Doctor Strange issue, which was written by Roy Thomas. [Issue #171].
Outside of those couple of pencilled pages for Wally Wood this was the first comic book pencilling I had ever done and it must have showed. Dan Adkins did a tremendous job inking the issue making me and the book look quite professional. When I returned to pencil another issue I was told they had a new penciler and would I like to ink him? I had done enough inking for advertising art so I took the opportunity and inked that next Doctor Strange issue, #172.
The new penciller was Gene Colan and it was the beginning of a wonderful relationship both personal and professional. I worked hard on that first inking assignment and did everything I could to turn his illustrative pencils into inked line art for printing. Remember using a lot of zip-a-tone to capture all the subtle penciling Gene had done, which he was a master of. I soon learned that Gene pencilled quite differently than other pencilers using graded pencil tones to render form and shadow and not strictly pencil lines. I enjoyed the challenge. Marvel must have liked what I had done and I was asked to return for the next issue.


I love finding out this sort of background stuff!


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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:50 am 
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This too:

Quote:
The first issue of the X-Men is what I remember the most vividly. The first three to five pages, with the Sphinx in the background, the rocket car—I would just sit back and marvel at these beautiful renderings. In Neal's second issue with the shot of King Faisal, where he's pointing—you can see Neal used a photo—I was just taken aback by the rendering of that pencil drawing. It's easy for me to describe from my eyes or my memory of that time, but to sit there and look at that stuff—I don't mean to make this sound too much like a religious experience, but it was whatever would be close to that.


http://twomorrows.com/comicbookartist/a ... almer.html


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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:53 am 
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I have always said that my favourite Adams art is Avengers 93, and it looks like the artists agree with me!

Quote:
The first pages of that "Fantastic Voyage" issue [#93] just blew me away. Neal just amazed me with what was going on. There were some shots in there, some of the scenes—it was all so original. I remember spending a lot of time on that issue—and coloring it also. I don't know if we traded coloring assignments, but I remember Neal felt confident about that. There was a satisfaction, I think, for both of us—that issue may have been the high point of it all. At least I remember being very proud it.


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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 9:59 am 
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Hanzo wrote:
I don't think Byrne ever looked like he wasn't a professional, even with some of the faults of his later work... and other than the slanted panels, his work looked the same as always, not very Neal Adams-esque.


Looks clear as day to me, even in the pages you posted! I can't use imgur in work so can't add anything image wise, but if you just look at the way he drew The Beast or particularly Angel in that series I think he was totes emulating Adams. He did a lot of that earlier in his career too though.


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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:16 am 
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I guess maybe if you could be more specific about what in particular looks like Adams. For me, the faces look like standard John Byrne faces and don't remind me of Adams; same goes for the anatomy. And the way the characters are posed look like standard Byrne poses -- he doesn't seem to use the same extreme forced perspective shots that are a trademark of Neal's work. He looks like he's still in the Kirby / Buscema school of figurework, whereas Neal Adams was a little more naturalistic and came more from a Gil Kane approach.

The only thing that screams, "Neal Adams!" to me are the panel layouts -- prior to this project, Byrne always used rectangular or square panels. On XM:THY and his work afterwards, he really got into the whole slanted panels thing that Neal Adams was famous for.


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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:34 am 
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And, as is typical with Byrne, he understands the mechanics of what he's doing, but not the underlying reasons for it.

Adams used the slanted panels to enhance his storytelling, and to move the reader's eye where he wanted it to go. Byrne used the slanted panels because Adams did it.


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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 11:03 am 
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Hanzo the Razor wrote:
I guess maybe if you could be more specific about what in particular looks like Adams. For me, the faces look like standard John Byrne faces and don't remind me of Adams; same goes for the anatomy. And the way the characters are posed look like standard Byrne poses -- he doesn't seem to use the same extreme forced perspective shots that are a trademark of Neal's work. He looks like he's still in the Kirby / Buscema school of figurework, whereas Neal Adams was a little more naturalistic and came more from a Gil Kane approach.

The only thing that screams, "Neal Adams!" to me are the panel layouts -- prior to this project, Byrne always used rectangular or square panels. On XM:THY and his work afterwards, he really got into the whole slanted panels thing that Neal Adams was famous for.

Well we disagree of course - because it's both faces and anatomy to me! :lol: The Adams influence is in the sinewy forms, it seems to me, and the focus on facial expression which Adams made a point of in his X-Men work.

The cover of Hidden Years 3 for example, is pure Adams (not as good of course!) to me,


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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 11:08 am 
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Yeah, I'm not really seeing it -- any Adams influence in those pages looks about the same as anything else John Byrne draws, except with Tom Palmer rendering on top of it.


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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 11:09 am 
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Evans wrote:
Hanzo the Razor wrote:
I guess maybe if you could be more specific about what in particular looks like Adams. For me, the faces look like standard John Byrne faces and don't remind me of Adams; same goes for the anatomy. And the way the characters are posed look like standard Byrne poses -- he doesn't seem to use the same extreme forced perspective shots that are a trademark of Neal's work. He looks like he's still in the Kirby / Buscema school of figurework, whereas Neal Adams was a little more naturalistic and came more from a Gil Kane approach.

The only thing that screams, "Neal Adams!" to me are the panel layouts -- prior to this project, Byrne always used rectangular or square panels. On XM:THY and his work afterwards, he really got into the whole slanted panels thing that Neal Adams was famous for.

Well we disagree of course - because it's both faces and anatomy to me! :lol: The Adams influence is in the sinewy forms, it seems to me, and the focus on facial expression which Adams made a point of in his X-Men work.

The cover of Hidden Years 3 for example, is pure Adams (not as good of course!) to me,

I see the Adams influence.

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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 11:14 am 
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Marcus wrote:
I see the Adams influence.

What are you seeing that he doesn't usually do in his art?


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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 11:25 am 
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Maybe I'm wrong, but I wonder if Tom Palmer's bring the "Neal Adams" quality to the art? Looking at the few pencils available from the series, it looks about the same as his other pencils from the era to my eyes.

From X-Men: The Hidden Years --

Image

Image

Image


And then from other series around this time --

Image

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 Post subject: Tom Palmer Inks
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 11:39 am 
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I like pretty much all the art in this thread. Neat!


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