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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:00 pm 
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He seems like a shithead.

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The latest example comes in a Wall Street Journal interview where Ellison claims Cormac McCarthy's Pulitzer-Prize winning novel The Road rips off "A Boy and His Dog."

Sorry Harlan, but no f'in way.

[...]

It's possible Ellison was joking in that interview about McCarthy ripping off his story, but I suspect he is being serious. After all, Ellison has a history of claiming other people stole his works. He sued Orion Pictures and James Cameron for "stealing" the ideas behind The Terminator, specifically the idea of a soldier being sent into the past to fight. Ellison also claimed they stole his idea of a human-like robot from the "Demon with a Glass Hand" episode he wrote for The Outer Limits.

Orion paid Ellison off and gave him an acknowledgement credit in The Terminator, a decision the film's writer and director James Cameron totally disagreed with. According to Cameron, because he was still a new director he "had no choice but to agree with the settlement. Of course there was a gag order as well, so I couldn't tell this story, but now I frankly don't care. It's the truth. Harlan Ellison is a parasite who can kiss my ass."

Obviously that's still a sore spot with Cameron and it's easy to understand why. If you read Ellison's original story "Soldier From Tomorrow," or watch the episode of The Outer Limits Ellison wrote based on that story, it's obviously the only similarity between these works is the general idea of a soldier travelling back in time. The same with the shared idea of a human-like robot or cyborg in both "Demon with a Glass Hand" and The Terminator. After watching The Terminator and seeing/reading the original works Cameron supposedly stole, one comes away feeling Orion Pictures paid off Ellison merely to make him go away, not because there was any merit to his claims.

http://www.jasonsanford.com/jason/2010/ ... lison.html


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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:05 pm 
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Yeah, he kind of does.

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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:15 pm 
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By every account of his childhood ever given, James Cameron was a voracious reader of science fiction growing up. He described his science fiction consumption as “tonnage” and, in interview after interview, he rattles off the names of the science fiction writers from the 1960's and 1970's almost like they're old friends: Bradbury, Clarke, Asimov, and on and on. In a 1999 interview, he listed Harlan Ellison as one of these favorite authors: “In the latter years of high school I got into the newer guys of that time, Harlan Ellison, Larry Niven, people like that. It was a steady diet of science fiction.”

Since James Cameron writes and produces science fiction movies, and since Harlan Ellison has written so many science fiction stories, there was bound to be some overlap between the events and ideas of their respective stories.

So, it's not any surprise at all that, in 1984, Harlan Ellison threatened to sue James Cameron for plagiarizing his works. Ellison's complaint was never formally filed as a lawsuit, so all the negotiations and the settlement were done entirely out of court.

It's important to note that James Cameron has hardly spoken of the settlement and there appears to be no record of any other parties from the defense (The Terminator producer Gale Anne Hurd, the film's financiers, etc.) making public comments. Because of this, literally all known details of the complaint and the settlement are told entirely from Harlan Ellison's point of view. So, all accounts of the incident are told with a bias – unintentional or not – toward Ellison's side. Cameron commented on the issue at the 1991 T2 Convention: "For legal reasons I'm not suppose to comment on that (the addition of acknowledgement credits) but it was a real bum deal, I had nothing to do with it and I disagree with it."

Ellison says the incident started like this: “Before Terminator came out I began to hear from people, 'Gee, there's this script they're going to shoot that reads an awful lot like your script for Soldier.'” The 'Soldier' script that Ellison is referencing is one of two teleplays he wrote for the anthology TV series, The Outer Limits. The second script he wrote for that series was called Demon with a Glass Hand. Ellison continues, “Now Soldier had been available on videocassette for many years. Demon with a Glass Hand had won all the awards but Soldier was right there in popularity.”

In addition to those casual warnings of similarities from unnamed persons, Ellison also was told by a friend of his,Tracy Torme, that, while visiting the set for The Terminator, he had asked Cameron where he got the story idea. According to Ellison's account of Torme's statement, Cameron replied, “Oh, I ripped off a couple of Harlan Ellison stories.”

Ellison says that he contacted Hemdale when the movie was still in production and asked to see a copy of the script and was surprised when they refused.

The final clue that he might have a case for plagiarism came when Ellison wasn't invited to the press screening for The Terminator. He said, “Now, I get invitations to everything and anything, but for some reason, I never got an invitation to the screening of The Terminator.” According to the science fiction news program Prisoners of Gravity, Ellison was able to sneak into the screening by posing as film critic Leonard Maltin's assistant. Upon first seeing The Terminator, Ellison said, “It was not my desire to find a similarity. I was sitting in there thinking, 'Please don't let it be.' But if you took the first three minutes of my Soldier episode and the first three minutes of The Terminator, they are not only similar but exact. By the time I left the theater, I knew I had a case against someone who plagiarized my work.”

So, Ellison and his attorneys then contacted Hemdale (the financiers of The Terminator) and Orion (the movie's distributor) to discuss a payment or settlement, with the obvious threat of a lawsuit in case none was offered. And soon after this initial contact, Ellison's complaint received even more support.

“About a week after my attorney contacted Hemdale, I got a call from the editor of Starlog magazine. ....It turned out Cameron had given an interview to Starlog and, after I began inquiring at Hemdale, [The Terminator producer Gale Anne] Hurd sent Starlog a legal demand to see the interview.” According to Ellison, Gale Anne Hurd then modified Starlog's article on The Terminator. She omitted a quote from Cameron in the article that read, “'Oh, I took a couple of Outer Limits segments.'” The reason that the Starlog editor had contacted Ellison was to provide him with the original version of the article, the one without Gale Anne Hurd's editing. Said Ellison, “At this point we went to Hemdale and to Orion and we said, 'I'm afraid we got him with the smoking gun. Now do you want to do something about this or do you want us to whip your ass in open court? We'd be perfectly happy to do it either way.'” Between the account of Tracy Torme and the Starlog interview, the attorneys for Hemdale and Orion quickly realized that they wanted no part of a lawsuit, by Ellison's accounts. “They took one look at this shit and their attorneys said, 'Settle.'”

According to celebrity biographer and tabloid writer Marc Shapiro, Hemdale was actually willing to go to court if Cameron himself wanted to. However, if they did go to court at Cameron's behest and they lost, they would have then turned right around and sued Cameron (presumably for fraud). So Cameron ultimately acquiesced. In the one quote from him attributed to the matter, he was reported to have said, “What it came down to was that I could risk getting completely wiped out or I could wave it off and let this guy get his f------ credit.”

There are two separate (and very divergent) accounts of the monetary settlement. Ellison told the TV show Prisoners of Gravity, “And they settled with a substantial amount of money, not the kind of money I'd have gotten if I went to court. It was, uh, 65 or 75 thousand dollars with an additional five thousand to be paid to be after a period of time that was stipulated in the contract if I did not speak of any of this.” But according to Marc Shapiro, the amount he received was actually $400,000. Finally, Harlan Ellison was to receive credit on all subsequent copies of The Terminator.

Now let's take a look at the actual similarities between The Terminator and Soldier.

(It's important to note that, contrary to many claims at internet science fiction and movie sites, Demon with a Glass Hand absolutely was not one of the stories they were alleging that was plagiarized by The Terminator. Indeed, aside from the fact that Demon with a Glass Hand and The Terminator both have protagonists who travel backward in time, there are no substantive similarities worth noting. Also, in the interview with Prisoners of Gravity, Harlan Ellison specifically states that Soldier, and not Demon with a Glass Hand, was the only story plagiarized. So any claims that Demon with a Glass Hand was a direct source for The Terminator are bogus and any evidence used to compare them are the result of critics grasping for similarity straws.)

First, let's take a look at the basic story for The Terminator. Here is the quick synopsis offered by IMDB.com: “A human-looking, apparently unstoppable cyborg is sent from the future to kill Sarah Connor; Kyle Reese is sent to stop it.”

Note that none of the primary plot elements used in that synopsis are parallel to Harlan Ellison's soldier. Not the cyborg, not the assassination mission, and not the savior.

Now, let's take a look at the basic story for Soldier. Here is the quick synopsis offered by Wikipedia (IMDB.com doesn't offer one): “Eighteen hundred years in the future, two foot soldiers clash on a battlefield. A random energy weapon strikes both and they are hurled into a time vortex. While one soldier is trapped in the matrix of time, the other, Qarlo Clobregnny, materializes on a city street in the year 1964.

Qarlo is soon captured and interrogated by Tom Kagan, a philologist, and his origin is discovered. Qarlo has been trained for one purpose, fighting, and that is all he knows. Progress is made in "taming" him; eventually Qarlo comes to live with the Kagan family.

But the time eddy holding the enemy soldier slowly weakens. Finally he materializes fully and tracks Qarlo to the Kagan home. In a final hand-to-hand battle, Qarlo sacrifices his life to kill the enemy and save the Kagan family.”

In that entire synopsis, merely one sentence parallels The Terminator: “Qarlo Clobregnny, materializes on a city street in the year 1964.”

That's it. By Harlan Ellison's own admission, the similarities between the two stories are in the very beginning. Again, here's what he said, “But if you took the first three minutes of 'The Terminator', they are not only similar but exact.”

“The first three minutes.”

Ellison flat out denied taking anything from any other episodes on his own website: "Terminator" was not stolen from "Demon with a Glass Hand," it was a ripoff of my OTHER Outer Limits script, "Soldier." (http://harlanellison.com/heboard/archive/bull0108.htm)

Here are the actual, substantial similarities between the two stories, broken down item by item. As Harlan Ellison himself said, they're all contained within the earliest shots:

    1) Both The Terminator and Soldier open with exposition describing a future full of warfare.

    2) Both stories then have characters travel in time through a circular visual effect.

    3) Finally, both stories have the protagonists from the hellish future arrive in the present day in an alley.

That's really all there is to it. In Soldier, the time traveler is sent back through an accident and he spends the first part of the story in a mental hospital and the latter half living in the resident of a doctor who's trying to help him assimilate into a more peaceful world. Of course, Kyle Reese in The Terminator was sent back intentionally and then identifies the woman he's supposed to protect from a cyborg.

But the most memorable and important elements of The Terminator – the romance of Kyle and Sarah, the fact that Sarah's unborn son will save humanity in a war, and, most of all, the title character cyborg and his culturally iconic chrome endoskeleton – don't even have the most remote analogs in Soldier.

Because of these scant similarities, it can be safely inferred that it was Cameron's two statements confessing to plagiarism – one to Tracy Torme and the second to the reporter for Starlog magazine – which were the true cause for the payment made to Harlan Ellison. If those two statements hadn't been made and Harlan Ellison had sued on the basis of the similarities alone, it seems highly, highly unlikely that the lawsuit would have gone anywhere.

As evidenced by the synopsis of the movie from IMDB.com, few (if any) of the plot or visual elements which people associate with The Terminator had any existence at all in Soldier.

And then there's the question of why Cameron made such flagrantly incriminating comments to Tracy Torme and to Starlog. Obviously, part of the reason was just because it was true: he had borrowed from Soldier (and possibly he was also using other ideas from Ellison's hundreds and hundreds of other stories.) But since The Terminator clearly stood on its own two feet as a story and since those statements could only lead to a plagiarism lawsuit, why did he say them? One possible answer is that he was naïve and didn't expect that borrowing small elements from an existing story could hurt him. For instance, the movie that Cameron credits with inspiring him to want to be a filmmaker, Star Wars, openly borrowed from a host of other stories (such as Flash Gordon and the Legend of King Arthur) by George Lucas's own admission! Another possible answer was that Cameron was not at all naïve, but was in fact trying to showcase a ruthless deceitfulness to the reporters visiting the set. Anybody familiar with the Hollywood culture will attest to the fact that people brag about lying and deceiving people all the time. In Hollywood (and maybe across the whole of America nowadays, as well) theft and lies aren't considered sources of shame, but sources of pride. So maybe Cameron was basically telling the reporters, “Look at me; I have the amoral mettle to really kick butt in Hollywood!” Either way, as long as Cameron and everybody on the defense remains private about the matter, we'll never know.

In the final equation, despite borrowing a couple of small elements from Solider, it's clear that The Terminator stands on its own two feet as a story and as a classic movie.

http://www.jamescamerononline.com/Ellison.htm


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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:21 pm 
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That would be a good contest of the mind, to try to decide who is a bigger douche, James Cameron or Harlan Ellison.

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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:30 pm 
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Everyone who participates in this thread should be prepared to lawyer up.


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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:32 pm 
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Bigger and Better!

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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:42 pm 
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It scorched

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Winks.

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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:42 pm 
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It scorched

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Notices it is only a dollar and gets disgusted look on face.

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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:54 pm 
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Hanzo the Razor wrote:
He seems like a shithead.

That's because he is. Ellison is a raging asshole, proudly so, and has been for many many many decades. He has a wretched reputation. He'll also sue anyone and everyone at the drop of a hat, so I expect a letter from a lawyer any time now.

For the most part I don't let my view of an artist influence my view of their art, if I discovered the art before the person. In Ellison's case, I knew Ellison the Asshole before Ellison the Artist, so I've long had a hard time coming to appreciate his work because I know he's such a dickhead,


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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 10:58 pm 
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GOOD MORNING, ERIC!!!! :wave:


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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:02 pm 
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Eric wrote:
Hanzo the Razor wrote:
He seems like a shithead.

That's because he is. Ellison is a raging asshole, proudly so, and has been for many many many decades. He has a wretched reputation. He'll also sue anyone and everyone at the drop of a hat, so I expect a letter from a lawyer any time now.

For the most part I don't let my view of an artist influence my view of their art, if I discovered the art before the person. In Ellison's case, I knew Ellison the Asshole before Ellison the Artist, so I've long had a hard time coming to appreciate his work because I know he's such a dickhead,


I've also known people that know him, and have learned that he's a great friend despite his assholishness. And of course he's happily married and is apparently a great writer.

SOME of his lawsuits over the years have actually had merit and are good examples of standing up for the little guy. Not all, though.


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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:12 pm 
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Oh, I've heard he's very good to his friends, too, and fiercely loyal (unless he decides to sue them). That's a very common part of how he's described, and I have no trouble believing it.

But dogs who don't bite their owners yet still growl at and often bite everyone else are not good dogs, even if they are fantastic at doing tricks.


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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:17 pm 
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It's Eric!

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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:19 pm 
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Hey, brother

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Eric wrote:
Oh, I've heard he's very good to his friends, too, and fiercely loyal (unless he decides to sue them). That's a very common part of how he's described, and I have no trouble believing it.

But dogs who don't bite their owners yet still growl at and often bite everyone else are not good dogs, even if they are fantastic at doing tricks.


this coming from the guy who would kill a puppy with his bare hands. not sure how to feel about your analogy.

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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:25 pm 
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HanLolol wrote:
Eric wrote:
Oh, I've heard he's very good to his friends, too, and fiercely loyal (unless he decides to sue them). That's a very common part of how he's described, and I have no trouble believing it.

But dogs who don't bite their owners yet still growl at and often bite everyone else are not good dogs, even if they are fantastic at doing tricks.

this coming from the guy who would kill a puppy with his bare hands. not sure how to feel about your analogy.

You've got it all wrong. I said I couldn't do it. You have misrepresented me for the last time. Consider this your final warning. The next infraction will result in severe penalties.


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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:26 pm 
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It sounds like Cameron was being self-deprecating and clearly that's something that can be used to wring a filmmaker's neck. Never thought I would sympathize with Cameron.

Ellison has a cherished reputation for "not suffering fools gladly." As with many who cultivate such a rep (see Byrne, John) it is a way of saying he's a dick to strangers and not just his friends.

I was turned against Ellison's work long before I became aware of the man's personality. I read one of John Gardner's writing books in college, in which he slit Ellison's gizzard. If i recall correctly, he never mentioned Ellison by name, calling him "our anonymous hack," quoted a passage that is unmistakeable Ellison, and says he is the kind of writer who would refer to a character wearing a sharkskin suit as "Sharkskin." I haven't been able to tolerate Ellison's "hep to it, daddio" writing since.

Still, I admire his passion. His Comics Journal interview is well worth reading, if only for the later sections where the interviewer starts talking like Ellison.

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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:29 pm 
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Hey, brother

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Eric wrote:
HanLolol wrote:
Eric wrote:
Oh, I've heard he's very good to his friends, too, and fiercely loyal (unless he decides to sue them). That's a very common part of how he's described, and I have no trouble believing it.

But dogs who don't bite their owners yet still growl at and often bite everyone else are not good dogs, even if they are fantastic at doing tricks.

this coming from the guy who would kill a puppy with his bare hands. not sure how to feel about your analogy.

You've got it all wrong. I said I couldn't do it. You have misrepresented me for the last time. Consider this your final warning. The next infraction will result in severe penalties.


psht, whatever. I ain't a-scurred of no hobbit.
:troll:

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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:39 pm 
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Cockblocker to Ducks

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HanLolol wrote:
Eric wrote:
HanLolol wrote:
Eric wrote:
Oh, I've heard he's very good to his friends, too, and fiercely loyal (unless he decides to sue them). That's a very common part of how he's described, and I have no trouble believing it.

But dogs who don't bite their owners yet still growl at and often bite everyone else are not good dogs, even if they are fantastic at doing tricks.

this coming from the guy who would kill a puppy with his bare hands. not sure how to feel about your analogy.

You've got it all wrong. I said I couldn't do it. You have misrepresented me for the last time. Consider this your final warning. The next infraction will result in severe penalties.


psht, whatever. I ain't a-scurred of no hobbit.
:troll:

I hope you like toe cheese, because I've got some with your name on it.


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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:45 pm 
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Zielfisch gefunden, Zielfisch gefangen

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I risk being sued for this.

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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:50 pm 
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Go ahead..I dare ya!

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Guys....he's worse than Byrne for cryin' out loud.


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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:53 pm 
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Hey, brother

Joined: 13 May 2011
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Eric wrote:
HanLolol wrote:
Eric wrote:
HanLolol wrote:
Eric wrote:
Oh, I've heard he's very good to his friends, too, and fiercely loyal (unless he decides to sue them). That's a very common part of how he's described, and I have no trouble believing it.

But dogs who don't bite their owners yet still growl at and often bite everyone else are not good dogs, even if they are fantastic at doing tricks.

this coming from the guy who would kill a puppy with his bare hands. not sure how to feel about your analogy.

You've got it all wrong. I said I couldn't do it. You have misrepresented me for the last time. Consider this your final warning. The next infraction will result in severe penalties.


psht, whatever. I ain't a-scurred of no hobbit.
:troll:

I hope you like toe cheese, because I've got some with your name on it.


Image

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 Post subject: So, What's Harlan Ellison's Deal?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 13, 2012 11:58 pm 
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Zielfisch gefunden, Zielfisch gefangen

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Say what you will about him being a jackass, he can tell a story.

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Last edited by Nagoo on Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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