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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:41 am 
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Does it make sense to have a mass-murdering, psychotic Joker (among many other villains) in the same universe as a Batman with a strict code against killing? How does he justify his stance when any random policeman in his stead would shoot the Joker dead without hesitation and be called a hero for it?


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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 12:53 am 
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To conserve energy, I'll repost my comments from other threads:

Linda wrote:
The heroes seem to have kept their code against killing from the Silver Age, while the villains have become more and more sociopathic and bloodthirsty. Today, Batman folds his arms and "refuses to kill" no matter how many deaths his inaction allows. Are we, as readers, supposed to admire that? The fact is, if a police officer refused to kill a criminal who was in the process of a murderous rampage through a crowded city, he wouldn't be lauded for his high-minded principles, he'd be fired for incompetence.

Linda wrote:
Batman doesn't trust the authorities to keep crime under control in Gotham City, so he acts as a vigilante. But when he catches the criminals, he suddenly does trust the authorities to sentence them adequately and keep them imprisoned? It doesn't make sense. The "I will not kill under any circumstances no matter what" schtick that DC does with Batman isn't noble, it's noxious. If a police officer refused to shoot a mass murderer who was in the process of killing more citizens, he wouldn't be lauded as a hero, he'd be thrown off the force.

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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 1:55 am 
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Also, who is stronger, Superman or Hulk?

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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 2:06 am 
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I'm certain there was a third post where I said the same thing in a third way. That's the one that would have convinced you, Rafael.

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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 2:16 am 
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Killing is illegal.

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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 2:17 am 
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So is, perhaps, having an unlicensed nuclear reactor in your basement.


But killing certainly is illegal.

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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 3:00 am 
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If he killed his worst villains he would eventually have a rogues gallery with names like Reg and Walter.


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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 4:42 am 
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Rafael wrote:
Also, who is stronger, Superman or Hulk?


Superman. Duh.


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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 6:47 am 
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Can't do executions. That's not right, especially if he's not the one the criminals have wronged. Batman turns them over to the bumbling authorities because he believes in the rule of law.

However, in real life he would and should use lethal force to protect himself and overcome them.

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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 7:21 am 
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He doesn't because he doesn't. Why does he dress as a bat, when all that someone would REALLY do if they saw a guy dressed as a bat is to laugh at him? Conceit.


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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 7:21 am 
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Of the genre, not on my behalf. Nor anyone else's :paranoid:


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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:54 am 
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Batman having a "no killing" rule makes sense -- he has a working relationship with the police, who give him a lot of leeway for his other crimes, such as assault, trespassing, breaking and entering, etc. If he starts playing judge, jury and executioner, it becomes even more implausible that the GCPD keep working with him and don't create a task-force to apprehend him.

With some characters, it makes sense as far as characterization -- I can't imagine Superman or Spider-Man would keep comfortable killing criminals on an ethical level.


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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 10:56 am 
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Makes sense when his rogue's gallery are pranksters and misfits. When they cross the line into serial killers and spree murderers?


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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:00 am 
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Shoot to thrill.
Play to kill.
Too many women with too many pills.

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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:30 am 
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Judge WAN wrote:
Shoot to thrill.
Play to kill.
Too many women with too many pills.


Interesting, thanks.


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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:46 am 
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He dresses up as a bat to fight crime because his parents were murdered,
yet he becomes a criminal in order to fight crime. So, it becomes a matter
of degrees, I guess, the lesser of evils. I can see him not wanting to murder
people, even preach against it, but he's killed people. And he will again.

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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:47 am 
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Ocean Doot wrote:
Judge WAN wrote:
Shoot to thrill.
Play to kill.
Too many women with too many pills.


Interesting, thanks.

You bet!

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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:51 am 
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Steve wrote:
Makes sense when his rogue's gallery are pranksters and misfits. When they cross the line into serial killers and spree murderers?

It makes sense in either scenario. He loses his police partnership whether he murders a prankster or a serial killer -- murder is murder. Cops aren't allowed to kill serial killers whenever they want, so I doubt they'd let Batman either.


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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:54 am 
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Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Steve wrote:
Makes sense when his rogue's gallery are pranksters and misfits. When they cross the line into serial killers and spree murderers?

It makes sense in either scenario. He loses his police partnership whether he murders a prankster or a serial killer -- murder is murder. Cops aren't allowed to kill serial killers whenever they want, so I doubt they'd let Batman either.


But they are under certain situations, such as when the life of another is threatened. Batman doesn't even do that.


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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 11:55 am 
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A friend of mine said it best recently. tldr:

Quote:
Of course I'm not advocating that Batman go all Dirty Harry on the Joker or any other villain, per se. I'm more arguing that storytellers shouldn't resort to the cheap gimmickry that is "psycho killer Joker."
The moment the Joker becomes a psychotic killer in a serialized, ongoing story is the moment that you've officially "broken" the narrative. That is, if the Joker kills dozens of people every time he escapes from Arkham, and the Joker always escapes from Arkham, then Batman loses even when he wins. Because the ironclad laws of story demand that the Joker will return and that next time he'll do something even worse to raise the dramatic stakes. Batman will always triumph, but it's a hollow victory because the Joker will always be back. Therefore, Batman's moral code comes across as preening and self-righteous. Basically, Batman lets people die so that he can feel good about himself.
Batman stories simply shouldn't be written that way. It's a cycle of despair that inevitably leads to darker, almost nihilistic storylines and character arcs. The only way to avoid that is by NOT having the Joker be a mass murderer (or at least have Batman pretty much always succeed in stopping him). Batman: TAS pulled this off perfectly. The Joker was a credible threat, but he was never Charles Manson. And when he did cross the line in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker it was the LAST Joker story in that continuity. It was a transformative event with real drama and real consequences for all the characters involved.
Psycho-killer Joker can be used very effectively in a "closed system" narrative like Nolan's Dark Knight movie or Frank Miller's Dark Knight Returns. But once you introduce that version of the character into an ongoing serial narrative... All you do is darken the stories and make Batman look less effective and less heroic with each new telling.
You can probably tell I have strong feelings about this...


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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 1:48 pm 
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Steve wrote:
Hanzo the Razor wrote:
Steve wrote:
Makes sense when his rogue's gallery are pranksters and misfits. When they cross the line into serial killers and spree murderers?

It makes sense in either scenario. He loses his police partnership whether he murders a prankster or a serial killer -- murder is murder. Cops aren't allowed to kill serial killers whenever they want, so I doubt they'd let Batman either.

But they are under certain situations, such as when the life of another is threatened. Batman doesn't even do that.

Batman always finds a way around that, it seems. He's never had to make the "hard choice" as far as I know.

Beyond that, even if Batman killed someone in what could be reasonably interpreted as self-defense, it still raises the question -- what is he even doing out there? Legally, he should have called the police, not taken matters into his own hands.


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 Post subject: Why doesn't Batman kill?
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2012 1:49 pm 
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Vigilantes don't do that, though. That's why they're vigilantes.


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