Might as well add my one Steve Hoffman story to this thread before ending it.

A bunch of years ago I had the interesting experience of watching one of those Hoffman forum pile-ons happen in real time. The target on that occasion was one of the mastering engineers who did work for the Japanese Air Mail label on their series of cult power pop CD reissues. Now, these were generally wonderful -- excellent sound, generous bonus tracks, fairly informative inserts even though the bands had garnered so little coverage in their day -- and, of course, they came in pristine mini LP replica sleeves. "Definitive" would be an appropriate term to use here. I couldn't have been happier with those Air Mail releases (and remain so to this day).

Anyway, the man was detailing his approach to remastering this old material, which included subtle use of noise reduction on certain tracks to help with the distracting amount of hiss on some of these low budget recordings. Big mistake! He was subjected to an obnoxious pile-on of people telling him how to master "correctly", which ended with him leaving the place in frustration. I'm not a recording professional, but I'm very familiar with the material he was working on -- this man's description of his mastering choices showed great knowledge and respect for the music, and a thorough understanding of how these albums should sound. In contrast, Hoffman's own "one-size-fits-all" mastering style wouldn't have been remotely appropriate for any of these releases.

To underscore the point, the thread then trailed off with Steve Hoffman pontificating on how he would "fix" #1 Record and Radio City. It was so wrong-headed, so completely off the mark, that I came to the conclusion that the supposedly vast storehouse of knowledge at his site wasn't really going to be of much value to a person with my tastes. I frankly doubt that I've missed any crucial information by not bookmarking the Steve Hoffman website.

Though I consider myself a member, I have to say there is something really not quite all there with the Audiophile community as a whole.

Back in their "glory years" (the 90's- early '00's) much of Sterophile magazine's letters to the editor section was taken up with writers meanly attacking each other. I never quite understood why JA chose to print many of those letters, he is not particularly divisive as a writer & has always seemed like a nice guy in my very limited correspondence with him.

The other problem with the SH forum is that due to their software it's virtually impossible to keep track of read/unread threads... with the high activity level, it makes topics extremely difficult to follow. Frankly, I could put up with all the other BS if the forum simply worked better.

The SH site has many wonderful members, but also a whole load of assholes, plain and simple. Might be unavoidable with such a large membership. I find IMWAN to be a friendly gathering place and that joint to be more of a site to peruse for information, and cautiously comment on things.

DanO, you nailed it. Full disclosure: I do look at the Hoffman site and sometimes even post there, but "cautiously" is exactly how I approach it. I enjoy the variety of discussions on the site but I don't have the time nor the inclination to get into stupid arguments with mean-spirited obsessives.

The real mystery to me is how the Hoffman site got so big in the first place. Was it simply the only place to talk about music at one time? It seems a bit bizarre that the website of a remastering engineer would have spawned such a busy message board. By the time I started visiting the Hoffman board this had already happened, so if anyone has insights on this I'd love to hear them.

I'm not sticking up for the Hoffman site in any way, but you have to understand that he's part of the music industry, and subsequently can't allow anything that the industry doesn't like -- it could damage his career. I get that. The site doesn't exist to provide an open, unbiased forum for everything.

This is why I'm willing to cut him/them some slack as far as what's allowed. A lot of industry folk are on the site, read the site, and Hoffman makes his lving in the industry. He's not going let people rant about specific people/events in the industry and jeopardize his job. And remember, yuou can't say anything you want on this site, either.

Absolutely correct!

For me, SHTV is a great resource...but IMWAN/ICE is an excellent hang.

You could definitely make the same statement about the Human Race as a whole!

True. My ideal board would only censor:

1. Attacks on other members (& true hate speech)
2. Legally dangerous statements (& there should be very few in that category per the 1st amendment; mostly talk of breaking the law in some manner).

Very true, but we seem to have very few at IMWAN.

Potential troublemakers see the size of Jimbo's collection, become intimidated, and leave before posting even one waveform.

I just look around on there and rarely post. I definetly never post about remastering as what I think sounds good to me they would prompty tell me that I have no right to be listening to music.

I also NEVER discuss mastering -- I don't listen to music for that -- and honestly so many of the people there just suck any enjoyment out of listening to music! There was a thread on the Red Hot Chili Peppers latest album that just went on and on about the mastering, until someone asked if ANYONE had a comment about the actual MUSIC.

Absolutely not true! You can say anything you want here without fear of reprisal.

For example, I don't have to worry when I say that Lind

Same here, I just find the whole thing ridiculous and wonder if some of those people are really fans of music or sound. I like getting into threads where an artists work is discussed or if there's a discussion of something I have personal knowledge/experience with and can offer an enlightening comment or two.

There are long-going jazz and classical threads on SH that I thoroughly enjoy because they've yet to degenerate into mastering bitchfests, nor inane lists or polls. Picked up quite a few releases via knowledgeable posters.

That's one of the good things about the site. You learn about stuff that's out there that you might have missed first time around. I love posting about re-releases or new bands that no one has heard about and then hearing back about how much the music is enjoyed. And vice versa, of course.

Exactly.

And one more thing. IMWAN has Linda and Hoffman doesn't. She bakes us cookies, for god's sake.

While I am primarily a fan of music, I find it quite difficult to enjoy when it sounds strident & brittle. My instinctive emotional reaction to strident tonality in mastering is (& always has been) anger. It isn't an intellectual thing (how dare they/!), it's more a "this sounds like poop". Even when I was playing live, there was a bass player I worked with in several bands who constantly bitched that my guitar tone wasn't bright enough for her liking. It was just right for me, though!

And it's definitely NOT a dislike of hard rock by any means!!!!!!!!!! Though I'm not a fan of modern speed metal, death metal, etc.

2 years back was my first gear purchases in years, & was completely caused by old equipment dying.

That said, if i was a rich man......................