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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:13 pm 
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Boney Fingers Jones

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Penalties are certainly the x factor in football. You could be having a dream season, get into the Super Bowl and some bad penalty call at the end of the game ruin the entire season and there is nothing you can do about. That and a lame call by the coach at a pivotal moment.

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:26 pm 
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Jason Gore wrote:
On one hand, I understand the logic of illegal contact / holding preventing a wide receiver from catching the ball, and you don't know what he'd do with it to get a first down. But on the other hand, offensive holding often is done to prevent a sack, and therefore would be a loss of down. Since having loss of down on offensive holding calls would be too much, I'd rather eliminate automatic first downs on the 5 yard defensive calls.

Good idea.

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 3:49 pm 
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I know he didn't win a Super Bowl, but it's nuts it took so long to get Don Coryell into the HOF and it's a tragedy he didn't get there in his lifetime.

Quote:
Four decades later, Coryell’s fingerprints are all over the offenses that define the NFL’s modern era. The move tight end? The three-digit passing system? Using pre-snap shifts and motions to identify the defense? Coryell’s Chargers were the pioneers.

His system sought to exploit defenses in ways no offense did at the time. If Bill Walsh’s famed West Coast scheme leaned on short, quick passes designed to stress opponents sideline-to-sideline, Coryell’s vertical attack would stress them pylon-to-pylon, primarily with punishing deep shots down the seams.

[...] In those days, tight ends were hand-in-dirt blockers, seldom used for anything more than a few catches over the middle. Coryell flexed Winslow out wide, then targeted him all game long, turning him into one of the most lethal weapons in league history.

[...] Coryell inserted a handful of pre-snap shifts and motions to help his QB sniff out the defensive coverage he was about to see. Coryell loved how fast Fouts’ mind worked. It typically only took him a second after the snap to confirm his initial read. He’d take his five- or seven-step drop and sling it.

[...] As Coryell continued to innovate — with Winslow, with pre-snap movement, with personnel groupings no one had seen before (two tight ends on the field at the same time, four receivers out wide) — defenses were forced to respond, football evolution happening in real time. Winslow was such a mismatch for safeties and linebackers that teams had to bring another cornerback on the field to cover him, the birth of the nickel defense. The dime would soon follow.

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:05 pm 
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Invisible Pedestrian wrote:
Now that was wild!

A little too wild.

The Eagles’ secondary is just ravaged with injuries, inconsistency, ineptitude and ill-timed penalties (I used a lot of “I” words).

And yet, they pulled off a huge win over Dallas 28-23.

Hurts is clearly injured and hobbled but still had 3 TDs.

AJ Brown and DeVonta Smith both had TD catches again, but the running game hasn’t been very good.

But the team makes big plays every game aside from that Jets travesty.

8-1, baby!



Yeah, but winless vs The Jets


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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2023 5:47 pm 
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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 4:47 pm 
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ARK wrote:
Invisible Pedestrian wrote:
Now that was wild!

A little too wild.

The Eagles’ secondary is just ravaged with injuries, inconsistency, ineptitude and ill-timed penalties (I used a lot of “I” words).

And yet, they pulled off a huge win over Dallas 28-23.

Hurts is clearly injured and hobbled but still had 3 TDs.

AJ Brown and DeVonta Smith both had TD catches again, but the running game hasn’t been very good.

But the team makes big plays every game aside from that Jets travesty.

8-1, baby!



Yeah, but winless vs The Jets


Somehow they’ve survived.

The Jets have set offense back 200 years.

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2023 10:40 pm 
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Yikes.

Quote:
Following the 27-6 loss to the Chargers, Robert Saleh made his weekly radio appearance on The Michael Kay Show and was straight up asked why the New York Jets can’t bench Zach Wilson and give Trevor Siemian a try?

Saleh’s answer seems to indicate that the decision is out of his hands, telling Michael Kay “I don’t know” while also coming off as being flustered by the question, only to respond by saying, “I don’t know.. you got me. I’m going to plead the 5th on this one.”

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2023 9:26 pm 
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The Vikings are onto something with this Dobbs kid.


We're not going to hear the end of it for over a week from Dallas fans with the win over the Giants.


Last edited by Mark MN on Mon Nov 13, 2023 6:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2023 4:33 pm 
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Ugh, I already didn't like having Trevor Lawrence in the AFC South and now this CJ Stroud fella is tearing it up.

Quote:
While a lot has had to go right for Houston to get to this spot so quickly, it doesn’t take a football expert to figure out the primary catalyst: Stroud. The rookie quarterback followed up a record-setting performance against the Buccaneers last week by outplaying Joe Burrow in his own stadium and leading the Texans on a game-winning drive. Stroud is now second in the NFL in passing yards and ranks in the top 10 in almost every efficiency metric, including expected points added and QBR. That’s how Houston has stuck around in the playoff chase despite featuring a bad running game and an exciting but mediocre defense.

This is what the great quarterbacks do. They accelerate a team’s timeline. Stroud has been so good, so early, that it’s no longer a question whether he should be the offensive rookie of the year, or whether the Panthers erred in passing on him to take Bryce Young with the top pick in April. Those conversations have already moved on. Stroud’s points of comparison aren’t Young, Anthony Richardson, and Will Levis. They’re Dan Marino, Andrew Luck, and Justin Herbert—at least among all-time NFL rookie seasons. If you didn’t know anything about the second pick from the 2023 draft, I’d forgive you for thinking “the first rookie QB since” was part of his legal name. It’s all you heard after Stroud led Houston to a second game-winning drive in as many weeks on Sunday.

[...] We don’t even need the “rookie” caveat to talk about Stroud anymore. He ranks seventh in the NFL in EPA per play after 10 weeks. He’s slotted in right behind Tua Tagovailoa, who’s throwing to Tyreek Hill and Jaylen Waddle and backed by the league’s most efficient run game, and Jalen Hurts, who is pulling in $51 million a year to throw to A.J. Brown and DeVonta Smith while playing behind the best offensive line in football. The Texans have provided Stroud with a good (not great) supporting cast, and he’s keeping pace with two guys who have been in the MVP discussion the past two years. He’s been more efficient than Herbert, Burrow, Matthew Stafford, Geno Smith, Trevor Lawrence, Jared Goff, and Kirk Cousins. He is leading a passing game that ranks third in DVOA. We aren’t just watching a great rookie season; this would be a great season for any quarterback in the league, regardless of experience level.

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2023/11/1 ... ton-texans

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2023 5:02 pm 
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Boney Fingers Jones

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Houston looks like geniuses dumping Watson and ending up with Stroud. Sometimes these guys make it look so easy and Stroud has been one of those guys. Look at all of them that struggle including Zach Wilson, Mac Jones and Justin Fields and this guy comes in and lights it up.
Sometimes it ain’t fair. :)

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2023 10:26 pm 
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JohnG wrote:
Houston looks like geniuses dumping Watson and ending up with Stroud. Sometimes these guys make it look so easy and Stroud has been one of those guys. Look at all of them that struggle including Zach Wilson, Mac Jones and Justin Fields and this guy comes in and lights it up.
Sometimes it ain’t fair. :)


I'm sure Hous fans are doubly happy they got him instead of Bryce Young. And I'm amped Chi has the number one pick again!

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Tue Nov 14, 2023 6:15 pm 
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Boney Fingers Jones

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Buffalo has gone poof! It makes the Jets losses to the Chargers and Raiders even more painful. And guess who they play next Sunday? Yep reeling Buffalo.

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 11:25 am 
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The Last Hippie

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deshaun watson out for the season.......

fucking browns, fucking browns, fucking browns........mayfield played when he couldn't even walk or lift his arm.

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 12:25 pm 
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Boney Fingers Jones

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Renny wrote:
deshaun watson out for the season.......

fucking browns, fucking browns, fucking browns........mayfield played when he couldn't even walk or lift his arm.


yep that’s two seasons wasted, maybe try again next year? He certainly hasn’t looked like the generational player he was hyped to be when he came out.

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 12:37 pm 
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Boney Fingers Jones

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Jets surprisingly cut RB Michael Carter who was their best running back last season when Breece Hall went down. He hasn’t looked good on the field and has dropped a lot of passes from Zach (who needs all the help he can get). Alan Lazard is also another player that has played well below expectations. Drops almost every pass sent his way.

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 3:26 pm 
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JohnG wrote:
yep that’s two seasons wasted, maybe try again next year? He certainly hasn’t looked like the generational player he was hyped to be when he came out.

Was he? I know he was projected to be good, but usually QBs considered to be "generational" are taken in the top five of the draft (often #1 overall), not the 12th overall selection. For example, there was no way Andrew Luck was going to be available at the 12th pick. Caleb Williams won't be available at the 12th pick in the next draft.

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 4:28 pm 
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The Last Hippie

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Hanzo the Razor wrote:
JohnG wrote:
yep that’s two seasons wasted, maybe try again next year? He certainly hasn’t looked like the generational player he was hyped to be when he came out.

Was he? I know he was projected to be good, but usually QBs considered to be "generational" are taken in the top five of the draft (often #1 overall), not the 12th overall selection. For example, there was no way Andrew Luck was going to be available at the 12th pick. Caleb Williams won't be available at the 12th pick in the next draft.

well, 230,000,000 says he was pretty good, at least the browns thought he was.

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 4:42 pm 
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He said, "when he came out" so I thought he meant the draft, but I've been known to be wrong here and there, lol.

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 5:22 pm 
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Always thought their was a buzz about him but the 2017 Draft was loaded and Mitch Trubisky ended up being picked #2 over Mahomes #10 and Watson #12, so I guess Watson wasn’t a sure deal that day but showed he did have the talent to play in the NFL once he got going. Mahomes at #10 is the real head scratcher, even the Jets passed on him as did 9 other teams. Now that is a once in a lifetime talent.

2017 included Myles Garrett, Jamal Adams, Christian McCaffrey, TJ Watt, Marshon Lattimore, Jonathan Allen, Dalvin Cook, George Kittle and Cooper Kupp.

Trubisky really did end up being the bust of the draft, now it seems another top pick by Chicago, Justin Fields won’t make it and now Chicago once again is on the clock.

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 5:57 pm 
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Some pre-draft analysis --

Quote:
Watson is as tough of a prospect to evaluate as there is coming out of college. While he shows flashes with his arm, he is wildly inconsistent and lacks the key traits (pocket instincts/poise and field vision). He will need to play in an offense specifically built around him with a quarterback run game and pass-game scheme creativity. There will be games when the coverage structures will be simple and the route concepts will match up with the route combinations, and he will have success. Then there will be games where the defensive movement will give him problems or the pass rush will force him to move within the pocket and get through progressions, and he will struggle mightily. Watson is not a pure progression passer, with his limited pocket feel and vision, and whenever that's the case, there will be a huge risk involved when hoping to land a franchise quarterback. The former Clemson quarterback's work ethic and intangibles will make him an attractive option, but there will be some risk involved.

https://www.pff.com/news/draft-pff-scou ... qb-clemson


Quote:
"Watson is the most experienced, and he has more good tape than the other quarterbacks," one of the executives told Jeremiah. "None of these guys are franchise-type, no-brainer picks, but he's the closest to what you'd want at the position."

There are others, however, who believe Watson shouldn’t even be selected in the first round. DraftAnalyst.com’s Tony Pauline surveyed two NFL teams about the top 32 players on their draft boards, and neither one of them included Watson.

"While dynamic as a runner, Watson’s simply not as physically gifted as the other quarterbacks in this class; his velocity and hot-and-cold accuracy don’t match up with that of (North Carolina quarterback Mitchell) Trubisky, (Texas Tech’s) Patrick Mahomes II or (Notre Dame’s) DeShone Kizer, and his 30 interceptions over the past two seasons call into question his decision-making and ability to read defenses," Kelly said. "It’s not going to get any easier going against faster, more complex NFL defenses."

https://www.independentmail.com/story/s ... 100765184/

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 8:14 pm 
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JohnG wrote:
Always thought their was a buzz about him but the 2017 Draft was loaded and Mitch Trubisky ended up being picked #2 over Mahomes #10 and Watson #12, so I guess Watson wasn’t a sure deal that day but showed he did have the talent to play in the NFL once he got going. Mahomes at #10 is the real head scratcher, even the Jets passed on him as did 9 other teams. Now that is a once in a lifetime talent.

2017 included Myles Garrett, Jamal Adams, Christian McCaffrey, TJ Watt, Marshon Lattimore, Jonathan Allen, Dalvin Cook, George Kittle and Cooper Kupp.

Trubisky really did end up being the bust of the draft, now it seems another top pick by Chicago, Justin Fields won’t make it and now Chicago once again is on the clock.


Bears fan here so I can chime in with more details why Trubisky was taken over Watson, at least in Chi-Town. Ryan Pace, Chicago's then GM, became enamored with Mitch because of his potential. He put up somewhat gaudy stats in only two years of college play in North Carolina in a lackluster football program so the thinking was with more and professional coaching and more experience he would reach an incredibly high ceiling. Pace felt that DeShaun was more of a high floor/low ceiling QB so Ryan gambled on untapped potential. A gamble against his head coach, John Fox's, wishes who wanted Watson, if a QB was taken at all. No one else on the coaching staff knew Mitch would be selected until the morning of the 2017 Draft which blindsided Fox.

https://sports.yahoo.com/ex-bears-coach ... 59099.html

https://sports.yahoo.com/ex-bears-coach ... 59099.html

For what its worth almost every mock drafts from 2017 had Mitch drafted ahead of both Mahomes and Watson.
Trubisky 2; Watson 9; Mahomes 13
https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/2017 ... rterbacks/

Trubisky 12; Watson 32; Mahomes 27
https://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2017/stor ... -tar-heels

Trubisky 6; Watson 12; Mahomes 25
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/269 ... -remaining

Trubisky 10; Watson 12; Mahomes 27
https://www.nflmockdraftdatabase.com/mo ... 2017-04-24

Trubisky 12; Watson Not even selected for first round; Mahomes 25
https://www.nflmockdraftdatabase.com/mo ... 2020-01-11

Trubisky 12; Watson 25; Mahomes 13
https://www.nflmockdraftdatabase.com/mo ... 2020-01-11

Truth is while reasearching this I didn't see a single mock that didn't have Mitch as the first QB taken Mahomes and Watson were scattered all over the first round after that. So yeah no one has any idea how a signal caller will do until he plays in the NFL? And it depends on sheer luck. Luck he will go to the right coach; implementing the right system; the system that catters to the QB's strenghts; and an organization with the proper infrastructure to allow him to develop.

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 Post subject: NFL Football 2023-24
PostPosted: Wed Nov 15, 2023 9:48 pm 
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It is a shame about Watson, but I thought that was a disastrously bad contract. And what's happening to them seems just so Cleveland

Hanzo the Razor wrote:
JohnG wrote:
yep that’s two seasons wasted, maybe try again next year? He certainly hasn’t looked like the generational player he was hyped to be when he came out.

Was he? I know he was projected to be good, but usually QBs considered to be "generational" are taken in the top five of the draft (often #1 overall), not the 12th overall selection. For example, there was no way Andrew Luck was going to be available at the 12th pick. Caleb Williams won't be available at the 12th pick in the next draft.

I know what you're saying - someone who could be a generational QB isn't going to drop - but just because you take a QB in the top 3 doesn't guarantee you're going to get a generational talent. Teams are so desperate, they're taking anyone they think can survive as an NFL QB in the top 3, and blowing multiple first rounds to move up to do so if they have to. The QB lottery is so not the top of the NBA or NHL draft, where generational talents are known on draft night, and usually pan out. Even the most well thought of players don't always pan out in the NFL. I mean, in the various links you posted, they mention DeShone Kizer, who's already long gone, and Trubisky will be soon.

And I was typing this, I had to check, and I was right - Peyton Manning is the last number 1 overall pick in the NFL to make it to the Hall of Fame, with only a couple (Mario Williams, Joe Burrow) after that looking like potential HoF'ers, let alone generational players. Whereas if you look at the NHL list, since Manning, I would say there's easily a dozen who will be going into the HoF, a handful of whom (Crosby, Tavares, Ovechkin, McDavid) are all timers. And 8 or so in the NBA in the same time period. I exclude baseball because of the 4-5 year gap between draft and debut.

I just think that what will make a great NFL QB after having gotten paid and surviving the meat grinder of starting for the worst team in the league in year 1 or 2 is such that we'll never know what could have been for a lot of these guys. The Carrs, Luck, Leaf, Russell, over and over again, top 3 draft picks on QB go bust. Not always because of the talent, but because of the team. But I think the number 1 rule for a team taking a QB with one of the top picks in the draft? Come hell or high water, he red shirts for his first year in the NFL, while you figure out how to keep him alive.


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