In the Rolling Stones thread, JosephC said I was thinking about starting the same discussion, so before getting into the best metal albums, let's talk about who is actually metal, according to ICE. And if you think a band isn't, but had a great metal album, let's hear your thoughts about that.

I put the list together, and I'm torn on a bunch of them, so I'm gonna go ahead and say Cooper, Kiss, and Def Leppard are. Sure, not everything they did is metal, but there's more than 1 album from each of them that I think are, and the ones that are, are really good, so let's keep them in play

Jason

The biggest problem with these types of discussions is that often people think of their favorite era of the band and use that to make a determination. For example, I would not classify Kiss as a metal band based on their 70's output. However, I would say they were proto-typical hair metal in the 80's once the makeup came off. Creatures of the Night is a heavy metal album. Dressed to Kill is not a heavy metal album. They are probably about the best example because about half their catalog would be metal (hair metal of the 80's plus Creatures and Revenge) and about half their catalog would not be metal.

But that would assume that hair metal is metal...when probably about half of the metal community would prefer to classify hair metal as something other than metal (hair AOR?).

I guess I pretty much take the personal approach that if it's got a loud guitarist and a vocalist that yells every now and then, well then it's fair game to lump it in some sub-genre of metal...but even so there is a lot of ambient folk black metal type stuff that is classified as metal but most people who don't listen to metal would be baffled on how 99% of the people who listen to that are primarily fans of metal.

One thing I always disliked is how if individuals don't like a certain genre, they will claim that any artists they happen to like cannot possibly belong in that genre. I just never understood how people can get hung up on labels like that? Personally, I have very little time for "college rock/alternative/modern rock" music. I respect the artists in that genre like I do in any type of music, but I just don't like listening to it. That being said, I really dig Midnight Oil. Fantastic band. I don't know exactly what it is about them, they don't seem to have a higher level of musicianship or songwriting talent than many other alternative acts, but there is just something that they do which is just awesome. But I would never, ever consider making the argument that Midnight Oil is not a "college rock/alternative/modern rock" band. I really don't give a crap if the general public lumps a band I like in with a bunch of bands I don't like...as long as their music appeals to me I'll like 'em no matter what you want to call them.

Well, considering Def Leppard were part of the NWOBHM, it's hard to argue that they shouldn't be on the list, based on their early output.

Black Sabbath should be listed,and I don't even like them.

I don't consider any of those acts listed as Heavy Metal.

Although I am a Metal fan used to write about it, I am far more of a Hard Rock fan.

Thin Lizzy, Rainbow, UFO, Tygers Of Pan Tang, Aerosmith, Pat Travers Band, Uriah Heep, Queen, Bad Company, etc.

To me, Metal can be as diverse as Iron Maiden, King Diamond, Opeth, Motorhead, Venom, Loudness, Slayer, Cradle Of Filth, Judas Priest, etc.

There's just no way everyone will agree with what's Metal or not.

I can say that once the Headbanger's Ball on MTV began showing Blind Melon, it was all over for Metal in the 90s, and sure enough Metal almost died.

Although I despise bands such as Korn, Limp Bizkit and Linkin Park, those acts saved the genre and in the 2000s traditional Metal made a comeback.

I didn't include them because they are never included in the are they or aren't they category by anyone except the band themselves; they are the fathers and first.

I think the other big thing in that comes into play with this is the age of the person.

If someone was listening to hard rock as it happened in the early 70s, then it's almost always that bands like Deep Purple, Led Zeppelin, Blue Cheer, and Uriah Heep are included in metal discussions; even Hendrix sometimes sneaks in. But if the person answering it is under 30, then those bands are almost always thought of as classic rock, because they aren't the extreme alternative anymore; they are the fathers of modern hard rock.

The other thing that happened is that after the extreme metal explosion (post Venom /Thrash) the idea of Pop and Glam being part of the same genre as Death or Thrash offended their sensibilities, and they started proclaiming "that's not metal!" for all the stuff that was on the radio in the 80's. But at the time, and in context, it certainly was. Bon Jovi may be a roots rock act now, but Slippery When Wet was definitely considered a metal album at the time.

The dividing line that I've used the most for the metal versus hard rock was whether or not you can still hear the blues in the music. So if you have blues music turned up loud, distorted and raunchy; chances are it's hard rock, and not heavy metal. But if it's got a different time signature, isn't based on blues riffs, or is more classically influenced, it's metal. That works for the really early stuff, and then everything else descending directly or indirectly from Priest or Sabbath is easier to deal with.

and for the record, I do understand the whole "I don't like X, but like that, so therefore that can't be X" mentality, but you're right; Iike what you like, and screw the labels.

Jason makes a good point about the age of the person.

I was born in 1980 and when I think of classic "Heavy Metal", I think of what I guess are called "Thrash Metal" bands like Anthrax, Megadeth, Metallica, Slayer, etc. That to me is all straight-up Heavy Metal and stuff like Kiss, Alice Cooper, etc. all sounds like classic rock or whatever.

But looking at Wikipedia, no wonder there's all the confusion, look how many subgenres there are --

"Alternative metal, Avant-garde metal,, Black metal, Blackgaze Celtic metal, Christian metal, Crossover thrash Crust punk Cyber metal, Deathgrind Death metal, Death 'n' roll Deathcore Death-doom Djent Doom metal, Drone metal, Extreme metal, Folk metal, Funk metal, Glam metal, Goregrind Gothic metal, Grindcore Groove metal, Industrial metal, Latin metal, Mathcore Medieval metal, Melodic death metal, Melodic metal,core Metal,core National Socialist black metal, Neoclassical metal, Neue Deutsche Härte Nu metal, Pagan metal, Pirate metal, Pornogrind Post-metal, Power metal, Progressive metal, Progressive metal,core Rap metal, Sludge metal, Speed metal, Stoner metal, Symphonic black metal, Symphonic metal, Technical death metal, Thrash metal, Traditional heavy metal, Unblack metal, and Viking metal!"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_genres

Pirate Metal?

ALESTORM!!!!!

Or, as they are known on Halloween - Christian Bale-storm...where they all dress up as batman characters, and change some of their lyrics / titles to a Batman theme. It's a sight to behold. I'm at work, or I'd post link some youtube to classics like:

Commission Gordon's Revenge
Bats
Harley, the Tavern Wench

I mean, how can you not like a band combining nautical pirate themes, shredding flying v guitars, and a key-tar?

A lot of these are just silly, although based on my experience metal fans are anal retentive to the nth degree ,which is why the sound of Mathcore is even a concept. I'm familiar enough with the root subgenres to know what most of these would sound like, and more importantly, which ones I'd like. And if you look, you can see a lot of boundary sub genres which combine two of the bigger ones (Melodic Death, for example)

"None of the above."

Origins within or occasional forays into a genre do not make that band representative of that genre, which is why "metal" does not apply to Def Leppard, Kiss, Whitesnake, etc.

I would consider just a few of those bands to be metal, but the others fit in so well with metal bands that I don't see the point of really trying to make a distinction. You might as well try to make different subcategories for all the classic rock groups.

I still feel that Iron Butterfly (the 2nd version with Eric Brann & the 3 originals) is as much of a metal "father" then Black Sabbath, & at minimum came before Sababth.

And it's changed so much; when I was a kid, Hendrix, Steppenwolf, Blue Cheer, Deep Purple, Sabbath, Cream, etc were frequently called Metal. & they do have little in common with today's speed metal, death metal, etc.

I think Hanzo is right, it's generational. I don't consider any of those older bands sound like what I think of as "heavy metal", except maybe Sabbath. Yes, I realize the bands I do think of as the early metal are also quite old now, too.

I'm sure there are entire message boards devoted to doing so.

When I was in high school, Blue Oyster Cult were our hometown heavy metal heroes. Are they still metal enough for metal?

Well, they just played Hellfest and also had Queensryche opening for them, so someone obviously thinks they're metal.

When BOC's debut album came out, it's well-known that CBS/Columbia needed a HEAVY Rock or Metal act to compete with the other labels and they marketed BOC as such.

That album is anything but Metal and that band is anything but Metal, so to say the least a lot of people were confused as to what BOC were.

They are Hard Rock and that's my favorite genre.

Then again, they've made Prog Rock, Space Rock (whatever that is), Boogie Rock, Pop Rock and other styles, so they can be whatever you want them to be.

Bands like Foreigner and UFO are also always on Metal bills in Europe and they are not Metal.

It doesn't matter.

Just crank the amps to 11.

I think the definitions have changed significantly over the decades. What was called metal in 1969 is called classic rock today.