Beginning with Dick Grayson shedding the Robin identity and becoming Nightwing, leaving Jason Todd to step into his old role and ending (arguably) with Green Lantern Rebirth twenty years later returning Hal Jordan to the Green Lantern role, there seemed to be an unprecedented era of legacy characters at DC. Wally West as the Flash, Kyle Rayner as Green Lantern, Tim Drake as Robin, and Conner Hawke as Green Arrow (as well as a new Superboy and Supergirl, among others) all seemed poised to be the new status quo for the DC universe. So, what led to the clock being turned back? Why a return to Barry Allen, a character who had been dead in the comics for twenty years, as the Flash? Or Ollie Queen as Green Arrow?

Was it the entry into the industry of new writers who grew up as fans of the older characters wanting to bring them back (Kevin Smith and Geoff Johns, for example)?

Was it a result of the post-speculator crash, leaving the companies to try to return to a time when sales were more stable?

Are temporary changes (death, replacement, etc) the new status quo?

And, a side question - why is Dick Grayson the exception?

Probably because it all took place post-crisis (with the exception of Dick Grayson/Jason Todd).

Since Crisis on Infinite Earths there's been no consistent DC Universe. It's not just that class of legacy heroes that came and went, there're tons of other characters and stories that were minimized or ditched as they changed the DCU.

That set of legacy characters being born in the 90's doesn't help. Unfortunately they're associated with one of the worst decades in the history of superhero comics. When a Kevin Smith wants to bring back Ollie, Connor being a child of the 90's doesn't help the younger Green Arrow's case any. Part of Hal, Barry, and Ollie coming back could've been writers trying to distance the books from the 90's. I know that it helped to draw me back in.

One explanation: there's a free-standing desire to change them up periodically now (the habit exists at Marvel, as well with Cap, Spidey, FF, all the Hulks, etc.), and so rather than create a successor to Wally, Kyle, Conner, etc., they reverted it back to keep things fresh.

Dick Grayson I can't explain. His return to Robin would be a huge event, and he's under-relevant as a character right now, IMO (after donning the cowl for a while).

Partly, but if Rayner and Hawke were selling like gangbusters, nostalgia wouldn't have played a role in it. I'm guessing sales were less than amazing, leaving editors open to changes that would increase them.



Until fans stop supporting them, they are.



Because he's popular and Tim Drake became popular.

As long as they can sell a satisying number of Nightwing comics, he'll stay Nightwing. I don't think there's the same fan demand for him to return to the role the way there was for Hal Jordan.

Could it be that Dick Grayson becoming Robin - The Boy Wonder - again would be seen as a retrograde step in a way that toher characters reassuming their original roles would not? Has Wally West become Kid Flash again, say? (I really don't know but it would seem equally awkward to do that)

Perhaps once someone has 'grown up' and people have gone through great pains to show them growing up it's hard to see how they become once again a Teen Titan when they aren't teens any more?

Good point, Evans, and I totally agree.

You could say the same thing about Peter Parker, or Steve Rogers -- "As long as we can sell a satisfying number of Captain America comics with Steve Rogers as Captain America, he will stay that way." They still stir the pot to create big events, even if they intend to put things back.

That's my whole problem with this Grayson issue -- Robin is somehow seen as a demeaning role for him, when I thought just the opposite at the time they did it. I think it would make for an interesting take. Because "Robin" doesn't have the word "Kid" in it. And he could have a cool costume, star in solo titles, and even some real tension with Batman.

I would do it. I've never like the idea that he has to "move on." He's not a real person. You can make him as young as he needs to be in all these New 52 Convergence things.

It's become the sacrosanct equivalent to "Bucky cannot come back." Instead it's "Dick Grayson can never be Robin."

I think it's because Robin is seen as a sidekick to Batman while Nightwing is seen as an independent superhero.

Point the First:
I never liked the 90's legacy characters, mainly because it seemed a way to force the collectors and speculators to buy all these wonderful first appearances multiple times thereby increasing the sales. As well, I know some of the legacy characters were "tired" for the ennui engorged fanboys (tm) that they were selling comics to, and so they wanted to create something "fresh" and "edgy".

Add in what they did to DC's Silver Age Characters (Ray Palmer missing, Oliver dead, Hal a villain / dead / Spectre (ruining 2 characters), the 4 Superman spin offs (one or two of whom became villains), Ted Kord shot in the head, the Digby's for God's sake) and how they did it (Women in Refrigerators is a perfect name for it), and it was a very dark time for DC.

I love the DC Gold and Silver Age characters, but I haven't seen them on the page in more than 30 years, except in Elseworld stories.

Point the second:
Almost every DC shock event that gets into the main stream media that I read about has language about how the character they're talking about isn't the one people think it is ("DC is killing Robin!!"). For better or worse, the Big 7 of the JLA (or the Superfriends, if you wish) are what people think of when they think of DC. That is the status quo, and every effort to change it will be unsuccessful.

this means that if you have a very nice, clean break from what's gone on since Crisis, you could easily reset to Dick Grayson as Robin. But to do that, at least 3 other Robins would have to vanish from continuity - Tim, Jason, and Damien. And that would be problematic, since they have been some of the more interesting characters created post-crisis.

Point the third:
The major issue with DC from Crisis onward has been them trying to have their cake and eat it too; they want the iconic versions of the characters, but they want fresh and new, and fans to stay around for more than the traditional 7 year period. I honestly don't think you can have it both ways, and they've made a complete mess out of trying.

Jason

P.S. Yes, I just read a whole bunch of the Convergence comics, and have a really good feel for just how bad they've made it. And they don't know how to undo it all.

None of the above has to be chiseled in stone. That's what is cool about it.

Why not have someone else take on the mantle of Nightwing, as they have done with Batman? Why is that one character immune from the legacy rotation, above all others?

Because people want to be Batman. Who gives a fuck about Nightwing.

In one of Marv Wolfman's Batman issues, there's a sequence where Nightwing confronts some criminals who've never heard of him. He says, "Like Batman, I'm the stuff of nightmares." This seemed absurd to me -- he's wearing a circus costume and a domino mask. Do you guys really see Nightwing as a dark, frightening creature of the night?

"Nightwing" isn't just another superhero name. Or at least it wasn't when Wolfman and Perez created the character. It was Dick Grayson's way of honoring the two men who had shaped his professional life as he grew from boy to man. It was the culmination of decades of World's Finest Comics and Batman-Superman crossovers. It was the Bronze Age honoring the Silver Age.

Every character seems to be temporarily thrown to the side, hopefully Nightwing endures in the long run.

No, but I guess if he beats you up and sends you to jail, that's a nightmare of sorts.

I don't really see Adam West's Batman as a terrifying creature of the night either, but he's still cool in his own way.

He is scary to criminals, but a beloved figure to honest citizens. I'm just comparing Nightwing to his contemporaneous comic book Batman who's supposed to be dark and frightening. (The validity of the latter is another discussion for another thread.)

So he is unique, unlike another character in the Big Two.

I want Grayson as Robin.

You want him..badly?

I'll never get used to that digital coloring.

I'd want Grayson as Batman. There's no reason for me to read more stories with Bruce Wayne that can't possible top what I've already read, but a different Batman brings the potential of new experiences. Grant Morrison confirmed this, I think.

When I was little, our expectation was that the sidekicks would one day grow up and take over their senior partners' roles. Robin would become Batman, Speedy would be The Green Arrow, Aqualad would be Aquaman, Kid Flash becomes The Flash. If they're determined to age characters, then Robin becoming Nightwing while Bruce Wayne gets a new Robin is nothing but copouts all around.

That wouldn't be an event. That would be a major step back.

He grew up, became his own man and to put him back in tights would make no sense to me.

But I don't expect comic book companies to make sense anymore and fortunately, I don't buy them any longer.