Just spotted this quote by Brain K. Vaughan and thought it would make good discussion fodder:

Is he right on the mark? Missing the point? Somewhere in the middle?

He's exactly right. Good stories -- like good songs, paintings, what have you -- aren't about their surface detail. They're about the message underneath. That's why good Spider-Man stories (gosh my life is hard) will always resonate more than good Wolverine stories (gosh I'm a badass).

Anyway, that's what I think.

BIG FUN!*



*-(Phrase stolen without permission from Melissa Ashton)

I was thinking "Heathers".

I think by and large, he’s correct – and invoking Stan Lee’s name is entirely appropriate, because Lee, along with his early collaborators, successfully elevated BIG FUN comics by injecting elements of the human condition into their stories. Not necessarily “realism” or any other such buzzword, but just a touch of that sometimes intangible something that allowed us to relate to the stories while still ensuring they were full of awe and wonder.

Sure, you can do some great comics that do not include these elements, but generally speaking, they'll feel rather empty by comparison.

The “continuity” thing especially I feel like is a great weight on many, many comics. What should matter is telling a great story and entertaining/engaging readers. Somewhere along the line, continuity became this supposedly integral part of mainstream superhero comics, often at the expense of more important things.

Just tell great stories that speak to the readers, damnit!

Dan nailed it: Wolverine may be cool, but Spider-Man touches on things much easier to parallel with things in our own lives – even as he’s beating up men dressed up as giant rhinos.

Theme is more important to some people and some genres than others. Mystery, for example, usually depends more on an intricate plot, romance on character. No one thing makes a story great and different things can make it successful. That said, Stan's formula is a good one.

Two thoughts:

1. BKV is pretty much right on the money here. It doesn't matter what the "trappings" are, if you've got compelling characters that the audience can relate to, then you can plug 'em in to almost any situation and come out with an entertaining story.

2. Continuity. Oy, what a mess. I'm not sure exactly when it happened, but somewhere along the way, continuity went from being the basic details about a character (Superman is from Krypton, Batman lives in Gotham City) to "everything that's ever happened to the character needs to be referenced as much as possible whenever said character appears, and anything that doesn't add up needs to be explained".

Let's look at a couple of examples from everybody's favorite comic-book creator, John Byrne. First up, JB's Fantastic Four run. The basic continuity is there: Got their powers from cosmic rays? Check. They live in the Baxter Building? Check. Villains are: Dr. Doom, Galactus, Annihilus, Mole Man, Psycho Man, Hate Monger? Check. Friends are: Silver Surfer, Sub-Mariner, Inhumans, Wyatt Wingfoot, Black Panther? Check. But by and large, this is a very "continuity-lite" comic-book run. It got heavier towards the end, but overall it was more about telling new FF stories than it was about fixing continuity "glitches".

Fast forward a dozen or so years and let's look at JB's X-Men: The Hidden Years. This whole series was nothin' BUT continuity! Byrne seemed to be far less interested intelling X-Men stories than he was in figuring out "How can I have Storm meet the original team before 'Giant-Size X-Men 1' without negating any previously published story?" or "Can I have Jean encounter the Phoenix force before 'X-Men 100' without violating any continuity?". And, while it may be kind of fun for old time readers like myself to watch somebody work these little continuity logic-puzzles out, it don't exactly make for the most compelling stories.

I think continuity works best when it's used as a basic foundation upon which a writer can propel the characters forward. I just want new and exciting Superman stories. Just don't try to tell me that he's from Mars and always has been, y'know?

A starring or supporting role by a certain two-meter tall green lawyer is always a plus!

Gratuitous nudity helps.

...

*ahem*

Of course you can tell compelling funnybook stories with unrelatable characters (like Wolverine - as much as I really don't care for the character, I've read quite a few stories that I've liked, particularily the stuff with Mariko), provided you inject some sort of relatable interest into the narrative.

Superman without the Kents and his other background trappings is pretty boring. With them (and provided it isn't 'Great Rao, Lois has been kidnapped again'), very cool stories that reflect on our own human condition can come out.

Spidey was built for this sorta thing. Superman kinda wound up there. Batman was an exercise in revenge fantasies (and is actually, in my mind, less relatable than Superman) but can work.

Wonder Woman...um...can't say that I've ever read a WW story that I ever actually connected with (although the Dini/Ross book was pretty good)...

The Hulk. A concept so primal that it is difficult not to make a relatable story with him (not that many, many writers have tried... ).

...am I rambling now? Should I go back to posting pictures of boobies with pithy sayings?

Here's something:

With Spidey, you may all argue and discuss which storyline was the best for you, the most memorable, the coolest, whatever. My choice is an odd one.

The storyline where he decided to leave college. I'm not sure why that stuck with me at the time, but it has since become much more relevant (for similar decisions I made in my early 20's).

To this day, if I think about Spidey, that storyline is the first one I think of.

...then the Cosmic Spidey saga, just for the goofiness of Captain SpideyVerse!

I think that comics are at their best when they are heroic. More than any other medium, comics can get away with flagrant sentimentality and selfless heroic acts. Superman is the founding father, and he started a genre where the iconic character is a man or woman that saves people without hope of thanks or compensation.

And I know that some will say "Well, you're just addressing superhero comics," but for me, superhero comics are the straw that stirs the drink. All of the others are possible because of the survival of a basic format which orginally appealed primarily to juvenile boys.

I dunno... I think there are a lot of great comics out there. Archie comics are great. I still find myself buying them on impulse at the register at a supermarket. I just finshed Archie's Pals n' Gals last night, and the part I liked was the total lack of angst. Well, not counting whether Archie was going to ask Betty out before Veronica forced him to ask her out. Boy, that plotline caught me by surprise.

Then I started reading Fables: 1001 Nights of Snowfall. I guess I can't share this one with my students, but it's a fun read as well. And in some ways, truer to the original tales than the Disney movies.

it all starts, lives and dies by the script. Pretty art will only keep you coming back for just so long if the story isn't there.

You mean, like Tony Stark talking on his cell phone?

I said "She-Hulk", not "Red Sonja". If you read her book or most of the comics that Jennifer appears in, you'll see she is usually either wearing her regular uniform or civilian clothing.

Not that there is anything wrong with gratuitous nudity, however...

I agree with you all.

The Haney/Aparo team on Brave & The Bold disagrees with you. Man, some of those stories were bad. Man, that art was great.

But some of the stories were great. It really depended on whether Haney was on or not. And yes, I kept coming back because Aparo drew it. Even if he drew women's lips weird.

Oh Kebbin, you have permission you silly man.


He's right, of course - PLUS - timeless metaphors for something meaningful about our real lives.

These characters are four-colour morality plays. They should never "grow" (or be empowered or any of that other wanky psycho-babble bullshit). Superman and Captain America and Batman and Spider-Man should forever be what they are, representations of specific components of personae that illustrate the best parts of those components. And they should always be fucking HEROES, dammit. These guys are better than us, and show us something to strive for.

I really have enjoyed the Batman mini-series that Matt Wagner has been doing. Great stories already plotted out, but revisited.

A comic only needs one of three thigns to make me like it: interesting well-rounded characters, interesting story or the ever hard to define element of "just plain fun." If it's got one of those, I'll latch on to what I love and forgive everything else.