I just watched Supremacy and Ultimatum last night and thought about how awesome Bourne's methods, ability to adapt, and strategies were in those movies -- and how Batman and Captain America have never awed me in the same way, despite being the best at these things in their respective universes.

I can't recall a single Catpain America book where I asked, "How the hell's he gonna get out of this one?" and then been floored by what he comes up with. He wins because his villains are stupid and have easily exploited psychological issues. It's always a Dr. Evil "sharks with frickin' laser beams" scenario.

I can only think of one time Batman's impressed me with his detective work; it seems the vast majority of it is dull "forensic" type stuff that gives him an insanely lucky break (the Penguin left behind this fiber and there's only one place in Gotham that has it!), using "enhanced interrogation" tactics, or him whipping out some sci fi gadget he conveniently invented. It's never awesome Sherlock Holmes style inductive reasoning or him using practical stuff on the fly because he's so clever.

Why won't they make the superheroes as good as Jason Bourne?

Comic books are sort of bush league, and they are written sort of fast. I think there are great writers, but honestly they are few and far between. And most of the good ones go off on some artistic tangent of reinventing something.

Movies make so much money they have some of the best writers in the world working for a whole year just trying to make a movie script more engrossing, exciting, and cool.

I wish more comic book writers would approach things like "I'm going to make the superhero in this issue do the coolest tactics ever, really thought out stuff." Instead, they seem to think in terms of story arcs, like "I'm going to have this happen, then this, and then this is revealed, and that should be about 6 issues."

Comic book writers seem to focus more on overall "What happens" plot, instead of really thinking focusing on cool sequential steps within a scene.

Hanzo, have you read the Batman story "The Joker's Five-Way Revenge" by Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams?

Yeah, but I can't remember it. Batman beats up a shark, right?

No, that was Mr. T.

On one hand I'm with you. A lot of the time a hero wins due to something outside of his control: a lucky accident, a teammate, something the villain did or said. However to compare it to Bourne is a bit off. He's only had a handful of adventures, and his genre is a bit more realistic.

I fully agree with most of what you wrote, but I think the Bourne films are the exception when it comes to action movies as well. Even really good action movies like Casino Royale or The Dark Knight don't really "wow" me with tactics or anything. Characters just show up when they need to and use aikido or whatever to beat the hell out of everyone.

In fact, I'd say most action films I've seen are even stupider than most superhero comics.

(BTW, have you read the Bourne books? I looked at the synopsis on Wiki and their plots are so different, but still seem cool.)

Sort of. Gets tied up and thrown into a shark tank along with an old man in a wheelchair, uses his wits to save them both.

I see your point, though. A Batman-Bane fight in The Dark Knight Rises with the same style and intensity as some of Bourne's fights in the last few movies would be fantastic.

How about John McClane?

No, I don't tend to read spy books, or even thrillers really.

Realistic? One guy fighting the entire CIA and winning is realistic?

Yeah, Bourne's had only three movies but since Batman and Cap have been around for over 70 years and have had hundreds of movies, TV shows, comics, etc., you'd think at least a couple could match the Bourne series.

And I'm not singling them out for no reason -- their whole appeal and reputation to comic fans is that they're master strategists and thinkers, which makes it irritating when they solve their problems via deus ex machina.

What do you usually read?

(It's Penthouse Forum, right? You read teh pr0n, right? Hit me up top, high five.)

Does he? I remember him just jumping on the shark's back and breaking its back or something equally ludicrous to get them out of that jam. It was all muscle that got him out of it.

One of the few times we saw him using the ol' noodle was when he figured out that Ra's Al Ghul was playing him in their first meeting. But I was only 11 or something, so I impressed easily. "Batman figured out a guy who's obviously a villain is a villain! Brilliant!"

Morrison's Batman is a genius who is always one step ahead of his enemies, and he's thrown into unexpected circumstances, he quickly adapts to the situation.

The closest thing I've seen Cap to be on Bourne's level is in Brubaker's run, where he is a pretty competent action hero.

But even there, it's only a handful of stories out of thousands, so I don't entirely disagree with the intention of this thread.

Mostly literature. Non-genre.

You sound like a fruit.

A bit more realistic is what I said. And to be clear, I'm saying the genre, the idea is a bit more realistic: no superhero gadgets or smarts. So the tactics and fighting are a bit more exciting since theres a bit more desperation and menace involved.
And without having read all those 70 years worth of stories, I've no idea if there has ever been a Batman adventure to match Bourne's.

Wait, Morrison's Batman in the JLA was about the best I've ever seen him and I would put him right up there with Bourne with no hesitation.

My memory is awful -- would you mind listing a couple moments? The only thing I can think of where Batman was totally awesome and figured something out was when he called out the Martians in the first storyline. That was cool.

I loved the movies and the first book. I wonder if the character would be as 'interesting/entertaining' if he was 'just' performing missions, like bond, as opposed to running away from the combined forces of the CIA, KGB, or whatever menace is after him.

For me, what makes the character interesting is his methods and motivations.

The whole "unfairly hunted by the CIA/KGB because of a high-level conspiracy" thing has been done to death, as has the "amnesiac who discovers the government has turned him into a killing machine" routine. (I'm referring to the films here, as I have yet to read the books -- but they're on their way! )

It was just pulled off really, really well.

Shut the fuck up, Hanzo.

Thats pretty much the best example. Oh, and when he had to spend years disguised as one of Darkseid's minions, trapped on Apokolips. I find I enjoyed Morrison's Batman in the JLA more than when he wrote him in the more recent Batman books.
Another good example is in the Earth 2 GN with Quietly.