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Allen Berrebbi
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2006 9:15 pm |
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From the following interview.
http://www.mtv.com/shared/movies/interv ... an_060315/
I found this part quite refreshing:
Those words, "fascism" and "anarchy," occur nowhere in the film. It's been turned into a Bush-era parable by people too timid to set a political satire in their own country. In my original story there had been a limited nuclear war, which had isolated Britain, caused a lot of chaos and a collapse of government, and a fascist totalitarian dictatorship had sprung up. Now, in the film, you've got a sinister group of right-wing figures — not fascists, but you know that they're bad guys — and what they have done is manufactured a bio-terror weapon in secret, so that they can fake a massive terrorist incident to get everybody on their side, so that they can pursue their right-wing agenda. It's a thwarted and frustrated and perhaps largely impotent American liberal fantasy of someone with American liberal values [standing up] against a state run by neo-conservatives — which is not what "V for Vendetta" was about. It was about fascism, it was about anarchy, it was about [England]. The intent of the film is nothing like the intent of the book as I wrote it. And if the Wachowski brothers had felt moved to protest the way things were going in America, then wouldn't it have been more direct to do what I'd done and set a risky political narrative sometime in the near future that was obviously talking about the things going on today?
_________________ DISCLAIMER: Everything I say from here on in is my opinion, semantics be damned. Allen Berrebbi Owner KRB Media
Big Bang Comics The Knight Watchman KRB Media
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Judge WAN
IMWAN Mod |
Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:23 am |
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He Keeps WAN with his BANgiver
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I read (and posted here somewhere) that that's one of the reasons he didn't wan't to be associated with the film.
_________________ Aren't you glad you talked about this? Here, on IMWAN?
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Steven Clubb
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:29 am |
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#NeverThor
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Joined: | 01 Mar 2005 |
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Location: | Dorne |
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I had read that some time ago, then found myself saying much the same thing a few days ago when I finally saw V... although I didn't remember his comments about the bio-weaspon stuff (I skimmed through the plot elements).
I think the Conspiracy stuff ended up taking a bit of the horror out of the situation. In a weird way, it's comforting to think that two planes crashed into the WTC because someone *let* it happened (or our governemtn was behind it), because that means that someone is at the wheel and we're really safe... if we get the bad people out and put good people in then our problems disappear. But if our security really is that screwed-up, that something that bad can happen without a government conspiracy, then we live in a much scarier world. Order is comforting, chaos is not.
Had it been a case of a very bad thing happening, then political conservatives taking advantage of the situation to commit genocide, then I think it would be much closer to our real fears. That we will allow ourselves to become monsters in order to protect ourselves. As it stands, it's just the same old conspiracy bullshit we usually have a laugh over, not a true commentary on our lesser nature.
_________________ I reserve the right to be spectacularly wrong.
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Dan Sehane
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:35 am |
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Joined: | 11 Jun 2005 |
Posts: | 838 |
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I'm going off-topic a lot lately but: Excellent Bertie Wooster sig, Steven!
D.
_________________ D.
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Steven Clubb
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 12:47 am |
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#NeverThor
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Joined: | 01 Mar 2005 |
Posts: | 26316 |
Location: | Dorne |
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Thanks.
I stumbled across the series a few weeks back and absolutely loved it. Adopted the whole Wooster theme during Civil War and made a few banners... that's my absolute favorite even if it breaks the picture convention. Just funnier to imagine Wooster saying it.
I'll probably drop the avatar in a couple of weeks, but I imagine the banner will stay.
_________________ I reserve the right to be spectacularly wrong.
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Edward J. Cunningham
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:13 am |
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IMWAN needs a Taft!
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Joined: | 24 Sep 2005 |
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For all the weaknesses of the movie, I still believe it's the best possible adaptation of the original work in a two hour movie and it stands very well on its own. To me, it is inconceivable that Moore is so upset about the film that he has not only renounced money from the motion picture, but also the original trade paperback. Is it that important to him that audience embrace anarchy as the hero of V urges them to do, rather than replace one political party with another, as happens in the movie?
And incidentally, Rick Johnson is the only person I know who seems to think "V" is "equally bad" as Adam Sutler in the original trade. "V" is the hero of the book, and the fact that he is mad, tortures Evey to set her free, and advocates pure anarachy does nothing to change this.
Eddie Cunningham
_________________ Eddie
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Chaz Ervin
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:36 am |
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You can count me in the "equally bad" crowd, Edward. Sutler and the other fascists are like V--willing to do whatever it takes to make the world the kind of place they think it should be. I think the movie's biggest deviation from the book is the book's moral ambiguity is gone.
I don't think Alan Moore wanted people to embrace anarchy so much as question the value of the governments we have.
Anarchy v. fascism is something that requires a little more thought than freedom v. fascism.
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Mark
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:11 am |
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How does
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Location: | Keystone City |
Bannings: | fear taste? |
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I think it should have either been called
V for Verisimilitude
or
V for Vexing
_________________ "I'm right 97% of the time. Who cares about the other 4%?"
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Rob Steinbrenner
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:17 am |
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Joined: | 05 Jun 2006 |
Posts: | 49778 |
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I grow tired of Alan Moore.
I wonder though why he uses Alice Wendy and Dorothy the way he is doing if he doesn't like his characters/stories made into something they are not.
But I do kinda want to see the movie, eventually.
_________________ I apologize for the above post.
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Mark
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:19 am |
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How does
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Location: | Keystone City |
Bannings: | fear taste? |
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I like his stuff in ABC. I have really enjoyed Tom Strong, Jonni Future, Jack B. Quick, Tomorrow Stories, and Top Ten.
But I grew tired of the idea a long time ago that all heroes should live in dystopian worlds. Fortunately, so did Moore.
_________________ "I'm right 97% of the time. Who cares about the other 4%?"
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Dan
IMWAN Admin |
Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 10:52 am |
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Luddite Wannabe
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I never read V in comic form. I've only seen the moobie.
I will say one thing about the moobie -- I really liked it!! I've seen it in the theater three times and will most definitely be picking up the DVD.
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Bubbles
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 2:55 pm |
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Joined: | 28 Jul 2005 |
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Enjoyed the movie more than the book, the book was good, but the movie was more enjoyable, maybe not better, but more enjoyable.
_________________ Refractory innuendos
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Fraxon!
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 3:02 pm |
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Rob Steinbrenner wrote: I wonder though why he uses Alice Wendy and Dorothy the way he is doing if he doesn't like his characters/stories made into something they are not.
THANK YOU!!!!!
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Steven Clubb
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:13 pm |
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#NeverThor
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Joined: | 01 Mar 2005 |
Posts: | 26316 |
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Rob Steinbrenner wrote: I grow tired of Alan Moore.
I wonder though why he uses Alice Wendy and Dorothy the way he is doing if he doesn't like his characters/stories made into something they are not.
His view is a bit more complex than that. For years, he's had the opinion that whatever Hollywood does to his books means nothing to his original work. If they make a great movie, it affects his work not at all... if they make a horrible movie, the same.
Then he got dragged into a plagerism trial for League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen, mostly based on elements that were *added* by Hollywood. At which point he decided that he does not want his name on anything, nor does he want any money. For V For Vendetta, David Lloyd got his share and is credited as the sole author of the book in the movie.
He even went so far as to say that if someone wanted to make Lost Girls into a movie and his co-creator, Melinda Gebbie, wanted it to happen, he would not stand in the way... he'd simply want his name removed and would accept no money.
He was openly critical of the changes made to V For Vendetta based on the script they sent him. After seeing the movie, I would say that his criticisms were 100% on target, even though I did enjoy the movie... I think the movie gutted the intellegence and message of the book, but managed to be funny and exciting and technically well-made (even mildly intelligent by movie standards), so it's worth a view in my mind.
Now, one thing I notice that creeps into a lot of these discussions is that many people equate a creator criticizing what was done to one of his works with fans of said material criticizing what was done to said books. When Harrison Ford was playing Jack Ryan, Tom Clancy was going balistic, constantly complaining that Ford was far too old for the role, even though most movie goers were perfectly happy with him. And he's not the only example, plenty of writers have gotten annoyed with how their works were adapted to the screen. To me, I think their words always hold a lot more weight than the fans complaining about the same changes... although I would allow neither to affect my enjoyment (or non-enjoyment) of the movie.
It gets a bit grey with stuff like League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, since Moore created an original work featuring pre-existing characters; but Hollywood bought the rights to Moore's original work, then promptly tossed out 99% of it. We can be critical of Moore's interpreatation of these characters, but we can also be critical of Hollywood's "adapation" of the book they bought.
_________________ I reserve the right to be spectacularly wrong.
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Steven Clubb
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:39 pm |
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#NeverThor
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Location: | Dorne |
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Not sure if this link will work for non-subscribers. Another Alan Moore interview, this time from Suicide Girls.
http://suicidegirls.com/words/Alan%20Mo ... t%20Girls/
The relevant bits:
On honoring the intent of the original creators:
Quote: DRE: But also people have been putting these girls into sexually charged stories probably since soon after the books were originally released.
AM: That is quite possible. The original germ of the idea was one that I’d had a couple of decades ago with relation to Sigmund Freud’s comments about how dreams of flying were expressions of sex. There were flying sequences in Peter Pan so I wondered if you could do a sexual decoding of something like Peter Pan. But I couldn’t think of how to do it without it becoming a smutty parody. I think that is what most of the things that you’re talking about have probably turned out to be. I wasn’t sure of how to avoid that because the world certainly didn’t need another comic strip pointing out how sexy Tinkerbell looked in the Disney version of Peter Pan. I know that the late, great Wally Wood certainly got a lot of mileage out of that erotic imagery. We’ve got the greatest of reverence for those three authors and those three books so we didn’t want to do anything that would actually travesty the characters. I know that’s probably going to sound strange given that we’re talking about a pornographic book that involves Dorothy, Alice and Wendy. But I think we have tried to approach each of these characters with absolute love and sympathy. At the trial of Alice for example, it does still retain a lot of that quirky thinking, strange intelligence and curiosity that is in Lewis Carroll’s Alice. I think treating the characters with respect, even in their most undignified moments which all of us have, is what elevates it above the mere saucy parodies, which are perfectly worthwhile in their own terms, but that wasn’t quite what we were going for.
DRE: Lost Girls fits in very well with many of the other books you’ve done. Most superhero comic books feed off of what has come in the past. What you’re doing with these characters in Lost Girls doesn’t seem dissimilar from when you deconstructed characters such as Swamp Thing and Marvelman. Was it a similar thought process?
AM: When I was dealing superhero characters or licensed superhero characters, that other people had created but I’d been given there was a set of problems in redefining them. When it came to approaching characters from the wider world of literature, that was a far different proposition because there is a world of difference. No disrespect to Len Wein and Bernie Wrightson’s Swamp Thing, but there was a world of difference between redefining Swamp Thing and redefining Lewis Carroll’s Alice. What’s the worst that can happen if you mess up your revival of Swamp Thing? You’ll just join the legion of other people who’ve done exactly the same thing and outside of comics no one is bothered by that. Whereas when you’ve got somebody like Alice or Wendy or Dorothy which are characters beloved by generations of readers the literate world over so there’s much more at risk. If you mess up characters such as those, it’s a much bigger disgrace than if your revival of Superman doesn’t go according to plan or whatever. I think that it was probably working on the Lost Girls characters that gave me the confidence to attempt something like The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen which in many ways grew out of it. It was, “hey the act of taking fictional characters for the purposes of pornography seems to be working out marvelously” and I think somewhere along the line I thought, “hey, you could do an adventure book along the same premise.” I think that led to The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. But it was Lost Girls where I found myself having to go back and read the original works to try and decode them and see how that could fit into the new narrative that I was putting together. It was very painstaking. Quote: On V For Vendetta: Quote: DRE: I got to interview [James McTeigue] the director of the V for Vendetta movie. I asked him “When V for Vendetta comes out on DVD, would you ever go to Alan and bring him the DVD and maybe a DVD player and ask him to watch it?”
AM: No, it would be better if he didn’t do that. I’ve told the producer that I want nothing to do with this film. If they had listened to me when I first said it, then I wouldn’t have had to spit poison at the various media regarding the film. It could have just come out without my name in it and there would have been no problem. I would never have watched it and I would never have had to say anything nasty about it. Certainly it was bad enough having the producer contact me by phone asking me if I wouldn’t reconsider and at least watch the movie even though I had expressly said that I didn’t want any further contact of any kind from Hollywood. He was saying, “Won’t you at least watch the movie?” I was saying, “Look, I didn’t want you to contact me.” This was after he had told lies about me in press releases and things like that. I didn’t want to talk to any of those people and from everything that I’ve heard about the movie, I think that I made, as usual, the right decision.
The lies he speaks of are when Warner Brothers came out saying how Alan Moore loved the script... this after he specificially said he didn't and told them he wanted no more to do with them. His disapproval of the film did not become public until after this, when he (admittedly) over-reacted to the situation.
_________________ I reserve the right to be spectacularly wrong.
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Rob Steinbrenner
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:47 pm |
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I'm just not a big fan of making children's characters something they are not. It seems they are often sexualized when there is no need, or beyond what they were supposed to be. Bert and Ernie are gay (no they are friends who have no sexuality), Batman and Robin are gay (with the traditional robin, that would make Batman a child molester, no its a father/son thing or at least big and little brother). I'm not picking on describing something as gay. In this case, you have 3 more or less young girls not meant to be put through as pornography, certainly not child pornography, which is depicted (drawn) in parts I here. But even beyond that, a little romance is one thing, but to me that is where I would draw the line.
_________________ I apologize for the above post.
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Steven Clubb
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 6:54 pm |
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#NeverThor
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Joined: | 01 Mar 2005 |
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I see where you're coming from. Lost Girls has been on the bubble with me for a very long time... just something about it seems so unseemly. I've seen the Wally Wood sex parodies and most pornagraphic material about children's characters goes along those lines.
But I find myself getting a bit more interested after reading interviews and Moore seems to be taking great pains to avoid it becoming a joke, which all of the examples you site are. The easiest thing to do is snigger at sex and Moore seems to be trying to largely avoid that... although he does talk about the many different responses we have to sex, humor being one of them, which are a part of the narrative, along with all the other responses he could catalogue.
Intellectually, Lost Girl fascinates me. Still haven't made up my mind if it moves me on any other front. Might get around to reading the two issues that have come out just to see how it's leaning in the early stages.
_________________ I reserve the right to be spectacularly wrong.
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Steven Clubb
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 7:03 pm |
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#NeverThor
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Not to derail the thread (I say derailing the thread), but the same interview finds me agreeing with Moore on a couple of HBO series.
Quote: DRE: A few years ago I read that you were a fan of The Sopranos.
AM: I was. I don’t know where I was going with that one, really. That one betrayed me and let me down.
DRE: They let us all down.
AM: I started off with hope in my heart regarding The Sopranos and I was saying lots of things about its Shakespearean qualities. That was when I still thought that it was going to end with series five, which was what they had originally promised. I thought, “Well, this means that it won’t just be a soap opera then. That it will be a something that has a beginning, middle and end. A proper dramatic structure. When it was announced that because the show was doing so well they were going to stick another season on it, that was when I stopped watching it. I think that was providing a pattern, which an awful lot of very promising American drama series have tended to follow. You get the impression that there isn’t an end in sight because they’re waiting to see how well it does. They’ve come up with a vehicle that could be extended, potentially forever and they’re making it up as they go along. The fascinating elements seem to be forgotten by the writer a couple of weeks later if they’re ever referred to again. It doesn’t have a satisfying dramatic shape. What I am enjoying now, which avoids all these problems is HBO’s The Wire.
DRE: I haven’t gotten into it yet. I do hear that it is very good.
AM: It’s very good because it’s restrained. It’s only talking about one specific case but it goes into incredible detail. I was even more impressed when I found out that the very convincing Baltimore black street gangs that were present in the first series were actors. I was proud and amazed when I found out that a good number of them are actually from England. There’s some very good writing and George Pelecanos is one of the writers and he is certainly the best of the modern American crime writers. He’s certainly more stylish and probably has more range than a number of the others. They’re good in their way but they don’t quite have the range that he has. It’s a lot tighter and things do get resolved. Of course I could be horribly disappointed by the third season and reviling it in a year’s time, but I hope not.
I gave up on The Sopronos after the second or third season (after borrowing a friends copy of them all). First season was great, then I noticed the rather obvious holding patterns they creating for themselves, and how it didn't appear to be going anywhere. Never looked back after that. Same goes for OZ, although I came in after the party was over and watched that whole thing descend into parody after a couple of brilliant seasons.
And The Wire... great show and totally under-rated. There's a couple of soap opera elements, which are sometimes distractings (such as the villains of Season 1 being followed in Season 2 despite no importance on the plot), but it's one season for one case, and is as sloppy and flawed as real life. Great stuff.
_________________ I reserve the right to be spectacularly wrong.
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Bubbles
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:27 pm |
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Steven Clubb wrote: Then he got dragged into a plagerism trial for League Of Extraordinary Gentlemen, mostly based on elements that were *added* by Hollywood.
I haven't heard of this, what happened exactly?
_________________ Refractory innuendos
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Steven Clubb
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:34 pm |
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#NeverThor
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Steven Clubb
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:39 pm |
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#NeverThor
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Joined: | 01 Mar 2005 |
Posts: | 26316 |
Location: | Dorne |
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Not exactly what I was looking for, but a look into his evolving opinion about movies based on his work. Another Suicide Girls interview.
http://suicidegirls.com/words/Alan+Moor ... r+of+Love/
DRE: The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen movie wasn’t well received and even though you don’t see the movies based on your work, did that affect you at all?
AM: No, I really don’t care about the movies. Less and less as time goes on in fact. My position six months ago was that I didn’t want to see them or have anything to do with the Hollywood process and that was probably when I was at my warmest towards Hollywood. I’m afraid there has been some downturn since then, now I’ve said that I don’t want any of my works filmed again. Those works, which I don’t have any control over, such as this new Constantine that’s coming out, I want my name taken off them and any money that would have gone to me should be distributed amongst the artists. I just don’t want any connection between me and the movie industry at all. I think that it’s a joke quite frankly and it’s not a very intelligent joke. It seems to be a joke for children. Any kind of involvement with Hollywood is a waste of my time and there is no amount of money that can compensate for that. I think the industry is an embarrassment on all sorts of levels but sure there are bad comics, bad books and bad culture so it’s not just films that produce an overwhelming majority of unwatchable rubbish but films that are unwatchable rubbish cost $100 million. That is the budget of an emerging third world nation, which is the point where it goes from being merely tasteless to being kind of evil. If it’s worth reacting towards something then it’s worth overreacting. Don’t expect me to be championing League of Extraordinary Gentlemen 3: The Empire Strikes Back or whatever.
_________________ I reserve the right to be spectacularly wrong.
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Steven Clubb
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Post subject: Alan Moore on V Posted: Wed Jun 07, 2006 9:43 pm |
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#NeverThor
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Joined: | 01 Mar 2005 |
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Location: | Dorne |
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Again, not what I'm looking for, but more of a look inside his head on this issue.
http://www.comicon.com/thebeat/2006/03/ ... moore.html
The Beat: Your name is on [the] League of Extraordinary Gentlemen [film], right?
Moore: League of Extraordinary Gentlemen was the reason why I decided to take my name off all subsequent films.
The Beat: Well…[General laughter] I think anyone might have done that! But go on…
Moore: Yeah, a lot of things which had to do with League made me decide I really wanted nothing to do with the American film industry in any shape or form. Which is why I asked DC if I could possibly have my name taken off the films and the money redistributed. This went fine with the Constantine film. This was because my name was never going to go on the Constantine film in the first place. Because that had gone so well, I distributed the money amongst the other artists my name hadn’t been on the film and I was completely happy. I assumed when DC then sent me paperwork so I could sign my money over to David Lloyd on the V for Vendetta film this was going to go fine.
It didn't. I had an American producer actually lying about my involvement in the film, which made me look like a liar. When I said I'm not taking any money from these films and I'm not interested in them, he makes a statement that's completely dishonest and was saying the complete opposite. So I felt I had to at that point exercise my right to completely sever myself from DC Comics if, assuming that they weren't able to just get a simple retraction, nothing humiliating, just a simple retraction apology and clarification that would have said we regret that due to a misunderstanding blah blah blah. That would have been all.
DC told me they were really trying hard to get that, I kind of got the idea that in fact probably they were just hoping if they stalled for long enough it would all blow over and there wouldn't be anything I was able to do about it. After a few weeks it turned out they hadn't been trying to get any apology or retraction or at least not very hard. They certainly weren't able to offer one that was anything like what I'd asked for. At this point, I said that's it I'm not working for DC again and also I still want my name off this film, if they don't take my name off this film, I will be taking my name off the books, because it means that much to me to sever my connection with this whole painful business.
_________________ I reserve the right to be spectacularly wrong.
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