Certainly the title of this thread is hardly news, since I’ve been starting a heap of threads about this era of late, but I figured, what the heck, let me start one of those “I am reading…” threads anyway. I’m actually somewhat running out of steam, but that’s okay.

Here’s the deal: Around the spring or so, I decided I was going to read the early days of the Marvel Universe in rough chronological order, via the Essentials. I wouldn’t be strict about reading order, but I’d try to keep things somewhat chronological.

No reading the FF issue where Ant-Man and Wasp guest star until Wasp enters Tales To Astonish. No reading that third issue of Avengers until Iron Man gets his new suit in Tales Of Suspense. No reading the FF/ Avengers crossover until Captain America is on the team. Getting to those early X-Men issues before Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch join the Avengers. No reading Doctor Doom’s appearance in Spider-Man until that falls-from-a-plane issue in FF. That sort of thing.

In some cases I have not read every issue in the volume, posting while I’m still halfway through. In those cases, I’ll note how far I’ve read.

So, for discussion fodder, whatever, here’re some thoughts.

Essential Fantastic Four – Vol. 1 (issues 1-20, Annual 1)

It wouldn’t be entirely true to say the Fantastic Four hit the ground running. In the earliest of early issues, the team is very embryonic, with some characterization – the Thing especially – a far cry from what would be established as “real.”

But they’re sure a heck of a lot of fun to read.

Stan and Kirby took a good 10 issues or so to really hammer into place what would be the core of the book, though it was clear from the start they had something good on their hands. Lots of adventure and imaginative ideas right off the bat – even if ugly inks and an unrefined Kirby get in the way. It’s not until the end of this volume that you really begin to see Kirby’s strengths (though his storytelling skills are strong from the start).

But he and Stan tossed out some terrifically fun stories, mixing up pulp science fiction with the early 1960s version of “realistic” superheroes. These early FF books exist in a nice place where they can be unabashedly pulp, with a dose of the grandiose, and plenty of good-natured fun. Some of the stuff is downright goofy – The Thing finding out that he is the historical Blackbeard The Pirate is, well, damned silly – but somehow that stuff is far easier to accept and enjoy than it would be elsewhere. Taken in context, they’re a hoot.

Some things to note: The costumes are referred to as “tights” (I think as “long underwear,” too, but that might have just been in Spider-Man); Ben Grimm betrays Reed and Johnny, casting them into the sea to drift away and die; the Thing uses a nuke – a NUKE! – to destroy a giant monster right in the middle of a populated city; and Stan and Jack make themselves part of the story!

Oh, and about the Thing? What a jerk! One of my favorite Marvel characters, so boy was it eye-opening to see how different he is here. Scheming, plotting, and full of honest to god disdain for his teammates. I was pretty surprised at how humorless and mean the earliest take on The Thing was. A totally different character. Not even likable in the slightest. Rather than being the huggable curmudgeon we know and love, he was … well, a creep, all but plotting against his teammates.

Now imagine if someone went back and started portraying Ben Grimm as per how he was originally portrayed?

Really fun stuff. Damn near essential reading. Loved it.

And he was Blackbeard the pirate too!

They are doing this at marvelmasterworks.com. Basically, every week or so they take a bunch of stories that came out in X month, and talk about them, either as they feel now, or as they felt then. As the weeks/months go on, they will have to read more and more stories each week.

In the minority, but my favorite FF's are pre-50 or so. They were fun.

There's been a lot of discussion on the similarities between the Atlas-era monster comics and the early Marvel super hero comics. It seems pretty clear that Lee, et. al. were basically taking their standard monster comics formula and adding super hero elements until the super hero elements ultimately took over. The Thing was really a "monster hero." Ditto for the Hulk, who made the Thing look like a camp fire girl in some of his early stories! Also note the preponderence of monster villains. Mole Man had a whole island full of monsters! The Skrulls looked like monsters. When the Sub-Mariner appeared, he called up a big giant monster out of the sea! Meanwhile, Hulk was fighting the Gremlin and the Toad Men, and Thor was fighting Stone Men from Saturn!

If you surf the internet, you'll find all sorts of essays on how this is due to Marvel's distribution deal with DC. At the time, Marvel was always teetering on the edge of bankruptcy. Martin Goodman thus cut a deal with DC: DC would distribute Marvel books as long as Marvel only published a limited number. Many people claim that Goodman didn't want DC to know that Marvel was publishing super heroes. DC dominated the super hero genre at the time, and Goodman may have feared that DC didn't want the competition and would cancel the distribution deal. Thus, Stan Lee and company created super heroes that didn't look and act like super heroes! This explains why the Fantastic Four didn't wear costumes in their first appearance. It explains why the Thing and Hulk are monsters, why Thor is a Norse God, and why Iron Man originally looked like a robot. It may even explain Spider-Man's freaky "bug costume" (according to this theory, Marvel wanted Spider-Man to look like a bug-eyed monster, so they could pass his book off as another monster title.).

The thing is - I've never seen Stan Lee or any other former Bullpenner verifiy this. It may well be nothing but fan speculation. I think it's possible that the answer to all this is much simpler than noted above. Perhaps Marvel felt that it couldn't directly compete with DC and thus hoped to lure its existing monster comics readers onto the new monster/super hero titles. In any case, I do agree that Marvel's early super hero comics were aping the style of its monster comics.

I'm enjoying the hell out of the FF Essentials. Apart from the odd 'impulse' buy (like Werewolf By Night, and Howard The Duck - ones which I'm sure won't have a second volume), they're the only Essentials I'm collecting. I am considering getting The Hulk volumes too, I must admit.

Ben's early portrayal is extremely different. It takes a long time for that 'treacherous' streak to go away, too. There are hints of it as late as Vol.4. Seems like anyone with a basic knowledge of stage-hypnotism can turn Ben against the others (The Mad Thinker does it, as well as The Wizard, among others....that's when there's even a reason for it. Sometimes, Ben's just in a bad mood and starts bad-mouthing Reed, Sue and Johnny, and he's forever threatening to leave). There's also his speech patterns. Ben originally speaks like Dr. Doom or somebody like that - "You Fools!", etc - not like a Yancy-Streeter. Part of the fun of those early issues is that you don't quite know what to make of him, and it's great to see how the character gradually develops into the Bashful Benjy we're all more familiar with. It's really well done.

There's such a sense of fun, as Eric pointed out. There seemed to be no limits or restrictions. You can sense how much fun the people producing it were having, and the energy just leaps off the page, and drags you into the story. You can have Monster Island, then Namor's 'Hypno-Fish' or his giant squid ("Just lookit that gapin' glob!"), then...well, anything went, it seems. Stan and jack being refused entry to Reed and Sue's wedding (Vol.3) is completely hilarious, and the FF seems to be the perfect format for writing almost any type of story. There's the pathos of Ben and Alicia's romance, the 'young love' angle with Johnny and Crystal (poor Doris!), and some of the greatest supporting characters in comics history, and every issue is brimming with weirdness and adventure.

I'd have to add that, along with the obvious 'Monster comics' influence, there's more than a little bit of Stan Lee in his 'Romance comics' mode as well. The stuff between Reed and Sue ("My darling..I...I thought I'd lost you", etc) is straight out of the 'Doomed Teen Romance' genre that they'd produced before the days of the FF.

the Essentials still put me off a bit by not being in color...that being said, their price and sheer volume of material almost makes up for the black and white!

Essential Spider-Man – Vol. 1 (Amazing Fantasy #15, Amazing Spider-Man #1-20, Annual #1)

Genius from the very start. Unlike the FF, Spider-Man did hit the ground running. Just fabulous. Sure, Peter is kind of a jerk in the first two issues (his whole fight with the Vulture is an accident because he was trying to get money), but that’s part of what I like. From the start, Spider-Man and Peter Parker were evolving as characters, and in a very natural way.

Stan Lee’s writing is whimsical and fun – as much as I want to groan, I get a real kick out of the constant “the Marvel Age of Comics!” hype – and Steve Ditko’s art was a delight. Really eye opening, and turned me into a big fan. I wasn’t sure how well this would hold up, but it’s a home run, plain and simple. There is nothing not to like. (Except the Enforcers.)

Having read only the origin and first issue prior to diving into all these early Essentials, maybe a few other scattered issues, but I don’t recall specifically, it’s interesting to see this embryonic version of Spider-Man. Some core elements, like Flash Thompson and JJJ, are in place, but other stuff – Gwen, MJ, the Osbornes – are absent. Stuff you might think or assume were vital elements from the start weren’t. Nifty, that. Goes to show you that Spider-Man is a character built upon an ever-changing status quo. Much more so than any other Marvel title at this time, Spider-Man as an ongoing saga that continued from issue to issue.

The steady stream of great villains helped this attain great height of awesome. So many icons! (Well, okay, there was a dud or two. I could do without ever seeing the Enforcers again. GOOFY!) Aside from some really silly diversions, like the awful “Living Brain” issue, this stuff holds up remarkably well. It’s easy to see why readers were so excited and why Spider-Man was (allegedly) an instant hit. I LOVE the way Ditko lets the action unfold, and his facial expressions are fantastic.

I gave my copy to my son after I was finished reading it, and he devoured the stories – in random order, of course – and has since read it two or three times. One thing struck me, though: After reading the comics, he did not gripe to me at length about how the comics and movies differed. He just took them both for what they are, and likes them both a lot.

Kids do the craziest things.

Anyway, this is wonderful stuff. Even forty years later, top shelf.

Great observations, Bob. You're more a student of this era's comic history than I - it's not a connection I would have made. Pointing it out, though, it seems almost obvious, doesn't it? The very, very early Fantastic Four is only barely a superhero team. Monster elements - along with a healthy doze of pulp sci-fi - are the dominant trait. If they never got into costumes, I don't think I would have blinked.

(Still haven't dipped into Challengers of the Unknown, but I look forward to doing so, to see the roots of the FF.)

Interesting speculation on why Marvel took that route. It seems plausible that they were trying to mask the superhero elements. Stan has said they were just trying to do "realistic" superheroes. A combination of the two seems plausible.

I love that about these issues. They didn't care about explaining things or the stories standing up to scrutiny or making 'sense' or any other such thing, they just tossed out fun ideas and said, "Here's a story!" And it worked! You've got alien babies bringing meteor showers down on the world (no one gets hurt, of course), Reed shrinking entire alien races small enough so they can fit in a modest rocket, Johnny make flame duplicates of himself, Reed stretching for miles. Whatever made for fun, they did it, sense be damned.

I do think the book became MUCH stronger later on, in the middle of their run (say, 30ish-90ish), and Ben Grimm's progression to his more recognizable character is NOT natural at all - it's clear they're working out a comfortable place for the character right on the page - but that doesn't matter. It doesn't get in the way of how fun these stories are in the slightest.

Everyone's always down on that Living brain issue-even at the time from what i hear-but I liked it darnit. and the follow-up 25 years later.

Wow, I used to read Web Of ... how'd I miss that?

Hah! "Special Tribute to Teenagers Issue!" I got a kick out of that. The wonderful, wonderful pandering. Cool that they dragged it up again years later.

Stan Lee is awesome. And I mean that.

I remember reading a comment by someone (can't remember who) about how DC had the more polished product but that Marvel had more raw energy and excitement. That kind of sums it up, I think.



That's a good point.

When you look at work that Kirby and Lee did apart from each other, you can get a good idea of what each brought to the table. In many ways, I'd say that Lee was the heart of the FF, and Kirby was the soul. By this, I mean that Kirby had the wild imagination, sense of grandeur and funky concepts, while Lee added the human elements (including humor!).





Hey, you can find a lot on the internet these days!

It's interesting how you notice more the more you read, too. I used to love those two-or-three page slugfests in old Marvel Comics. Now that I know about the Marvel method, I can see why they did that. Lee gave the artist a rough outline. If the artist didn't have enough story, he could just stretch out the fight scene. It's the Silver Age version of decompressed storytelling!



Lee seems to be interested in anti-heroes - even if he makes them more heroic over time. The Thing and the Hulk started as true anti-heroes. I recall Steven Clubb mentioning somewhere that Spider-Man's origin reads like the origin of a villain (with Peter Parker not caring what happens to anyone and deciding to look out for number one.). Look at the Just Imagine Stan Lee Creating Superman book for DC, and you'll note that Stan's Superman is an anti-hero, as well. Of course, I think you saw less of this sort of thing as Marvel became more popular.

Essential Incredible Hulk - Vol. 1 (Tales to Astonish #60-91, and Hulk #1-6)

(These comments are based on reading Hulk 1-6. I have not yet read the Tales to Astonish issues, though I DID read them years ago – I own almost the whole run – and remember them fondly. I’ll make another post when I read some. So keep in mind, I’m talking about the first six Hulk issues only.)

Ouch. With preemptive apologies to fans: Those first six Hulk issues are terrible. I’m sorry, but they are. It was a real chore to get through them. Haphazard and all over the map, it’s pretty clear Stan and Jack had this great idea for a character but just didn’t know what to do with him. I had only ever read the (excellent) origin before, and nothing else prior to the Tales To Astonish issues, so didn't know what to expect. I did not expect greatness, but I also didn’t expect such apparent meanderings. These were NOT enjoyable to read. Good thing they went on to tweak the character and let him evolve.

The early Hulk is just some mean guy who happens to be strong. The dialogue is hilarious ... and not in a quaint, yesteryear kind of way. It’s just kind of bad.

There was just so much here that struck me as badly handled. I laughed out loud when I saw the Hulk “gliding.” When he jumps he doesn't just jump, he shoots around in the air like he's flying. At one point he swoops down from the sky, scoops Rick Jones out of a moving car, swoops back into the sky, banks hard and goes to his underground lair.

All without hitting the ground. This was done in a single leap.

Hahahahahaha!

And that "Magnetism Master" issue was just plain goofy. NOT in a good way. "Aww, shucks, kids, I just built this here cardboard gun, painted it up and WHAMMO! Thanks, Teen Brigade!"

A lot of this early Marvel stuff is charming and fun. Spider-Man and Fantastic Four especially are a damn good time to read. It's easy to see why both clicked with readers. But dear lord, those first six Hulk issues are simply dreadful. It's astonishing the character went on to become one of the most popular around.

Well, not too astonishing. Haven’t read them a second time around yet, but years ago I read those Tales To Astonish issues and liked them a lot. We get into rampaging monster Hulk, with him fighting hordes of creatures or giant monsters or the army or whatever. MUCH cooler than Hulk working with the Teen Brigade to defeat the Master of Magnetism (or whatever he was called), or beating up on commies. THAT’S the Hulk I want to see.

Will pick back up on this once I catch up in the Ant-Man volume. But I'm in no rush.

The first 55-60 issues of FF are likely one of the greatest runs of a single comic cast ever assembled. Simply amazing.

Agreed. And I'd add, as I've said before, FF #49 might be the greatest comic ever made. Absolutely incredible stuff.

Jeff, we can cosponsor a new pair of polls if you like? Or mebbe just a survey about greatest series and greatest single comic? Whaddya thunk?

Have at it, Darren.

I'd submit FF 49 and ASM 33 for consideration.

There you go again. I guess this means you hate America, commie.

I know almost all the words of the Star-Spangled Banner, thank you very much.

Well, I know the first line, and the one about the rockets. That's "almost all," isn't it?

FF 51 - "This Man, This Monster!" The epitome of Silver-Age Marvel. Cosmic Stories with a Human Touch.

This is my favorite IMWAN thread ever.

Aye, I'm with you 100% there. Probably the best Marvel story I've read no matter what era.