Is anyone aware of an index-type site that has the characters appearing in the background, etc? There are tons of cool-looking characters running around that have (to me) no names.

Danke!

Thenk yew.

So is this a book from the 90s I should actually read? Which would you suggest I read first -- Kingdom Come, or Marvels?

read Mark Gruenwald's Squadron Supreme first...the plot of Kingdom Come is very, very similar...

I think both are very, very good books.

...I think either Marvels or KC can be read first. I'm not sure anymore as to which one I prefer (I waffle back and forth...mmmm....waffles...)

I've got the Squadron Supreme story in the original single issues. I *love* that story. Kingdom Come is great fun, too. Lot's of high drama. I really enjoyed all the character designs.

I haven't read Marvels yet.

**ducks**

Here you go, Ian...

Thanks!

mmm...just how I like 'em - with blueberries and lettuce

When the heck did parsley get decided as the garnish o' choice? I prefer lemon wedges

Now......I gotta cry Shenannigans here.
Squadron Supreme and Kingdom Come are about as similar as The Adventures of Captain Marvel and Daffy Duck Funnies.

KC is set about 20 years or so into the future of the DCU. Its a "possible" future, thus the Elseworlds logo on the cover.
It deals with a world where Superman has retired, and a bunch of the old guard has followed suit, leaving the young newcomers, who don't have the same set of morals to fill the slot of Super heroes.
Something drastic happens to bring Superman out of retirement, and sets him on the course of setting things right (or so he thought).

Squadron Supreme is set in a universe where this group of heroes (the Marvel version of the JLA) decides that society can't care for themselves, and therefore must take control of everything, and do it for them.

Sure both have superheroes, and there is a confrontation between groups, but THATS IT as far as similarities go.

I kinda get tired of people comparing the two and saying how much alike they are, when in reality they aren't.
(same thing with Alan Moore's Twilight proposal. Just because it takes place in a dark future, and there's a big fight, does NOT mean that Kingdom Come is JUST like it.)
Sorry if I sound grumpy, but general comparisons like this don't stand up if you REALLY look at it.
And you can read Marvels first or second, it doesn't matter since it deals with the beginnings of the Marvel Universe; while KC deals with the DCU.
(Both are very good as well)

You're welcome, Ian.

But that's a sprig of mint!

Isn't Squadron Supreme closer to Watchmen tha Kingdom Come?

Not even close.

In both stories, "Superman" after a great disaster, leads the "Justice Leage" in taking a step beyond their previous role. They BECOME the law and start enforcing it as they see fit. In both stories "Batman" stands in opposition to the "Justice Leage" and forms his own group to put a stop to their actions. In the end (after the deaths of many heroes) "Superman" sees the error of his ways and makes a big mea culpa speech to the world.

Look, I have never been one to say that Ross/Waid lifted the SQUADRON SUPREME story word for word, but there are more similarities between the two plots than you imply, Hugh. And I am a huge fan of both mini-series.

I have missed a lot of good stories over the years. Was Alan Moore's Twilight a book that was published or did it remain a proposal? Always eager for a good read!

It is green. It is therefore lettuce

(sorry, my bad. I've never seen anyplace where they garnish with mint - only parsley, lemons, and star-shaped carrots)

I think the big difference is that in KC Superman tries to enforce control over the meta-humans ONLY. Not on a global scale as did Hyperion in Squadron Supreme. (the disarmament plan, the brainwashing of criminals, the medical advances, etc etc.)
As far as Batman leading the opposition, well, he's ALWAYS leading the opposition in stories like this.



I'll disagree slightly w/ you on the similarities issue because the stories really are two different things, and the similarities are very superficial at best.
One is telling us what could happen when we let "heroes" act in a more harsh, un-hero-like manner (basically a commentary on the state of comic book characters at the time), and the other shows us what could happen when we let them run EVERYTHING for us.
But hey, you are right, they are both GREAT stories, and anybody who wants to read some good thought provoking ideas should check them out.



And as for Twilight........
No it never got past the planning stages. (which in some ways I'm glad, because it was reall REALLY dark, even for Alan Moore)

Here's a link to Moore's Twilight of the Super-Heroes proposal:

http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/6612/twilight.htm

Bill

Well, I liked Marvels more, because I'm a Marvel guy, originally. KC is good, as is Squadron Supreme, and Shenanigans, I mean Watchmen. There are themes which overlap, but I'd say that SS and KC are as close as pancakes and waffles.


Waitasec......

Loved Marvels and Kingdom Come. Outside a few of the usual trades -- Watchmen, Year One, Elementals -- I wasn't reading comics up through the nineties. I still liked 'em, but I thought of them as something in the past, you know? Like original Coke or good rock radio. But both those stories were so layered and teeming with characters I recognized or remembered, they made me want to read more.

FF 169 was my very first Marvel comic. I was eight or so. I remember having no idea what was going on, who was who -- it took me two issues to figure out that Johnny Storm and the Human Torch were one and the same -- but it was all so cool I wanted to get back in that world as soon as I could. Complex storylines like those seventies Marvels and KC can be a good thing sometimes, I think -- they sure lured me in.

On the downside, this all means I'm gonna end up an eighty year-old loner watching soap operas, I just know it...

Wow. Looks like Alex Ross got his idea for the Uncle Sam two-parter directly from Moore's proposal.

I just picked this up. Its not entirely new, but I hadn't seen it before. An excellent PILE of stuff related to Ross's work and life. Tons of sketches and whatnot. Very well-spent nickels.