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Monk
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:32 am |
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Quote: 2007-08-30 10:06:44 Getting back to some of the issues we were dancing around a few days ago, and some of the responses that people have left, both here and elsewhere, I think it would be a good idea to spend a few seconds thinking about the nature of the shared universe, and the best ways of going about getting the best stories out of such a construction. In short, it requires cooperation.
There's a school of thought that there are certain elements of a given character that are sacrosant. And there are—but the list is much, much shorter than many readers think it is, I think. And it's a very subjective list as well—the things I think are sacrosant may not match up with the things Axel thinks are sacrosant, may not match up with the things a given reader thinks are sacrosant.
This is all kind of a correlary to the notion that certain characters aren't being "respected", or are being "sold out" or "undercut" by evil people who don't care about them, or who are only out to make a buck—who don't have the true, pure love that the reader has for the characters. There's also a separate ingrained desire for absolute conformity across the line on the part of some readers—a point of view Marvel spent a lot of effort fostering in the 1980s especially, but which quickly became the goal in and of itself, rather than a guideline to telling stories.
Every writer brings a slightly different take to the table in terms of the characters—the same way that every fan has a slightly different take. It all depends on when you started reading the books, what your formative experiences with the characters were. And the plain fact of the matter is that, when you're working within a shared world construct like the Marvel Universe, there really is no one firm, set, eternal answer. Every answer is true until it isn't true anymore—until somebody manages to tell a story that, good or bad, changes the perconceptions people have. Like the legends of yore, these stories and these characters evolve to meet the changing demands and interests of the ever-changing, ever-growing audience
I think writers work best when they're able to tell the truth as they see it (which is a slightly different thing than telling the absolute truth, since nobody can be perfectly unbiased.) And I think it's a mistake to put the larger cosmology of the interconnected Marvel Universe ahead of its individual stories. I didn't always feel quite this way—and it's not an absolute with me even now. But on balance, the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history.
Given the sheer number of points of view who have worked on these characters and within this universe over the last six and a half decades, expecting every opinion, every attitude, every decision each character makes to be absolutely consistent is absurd. We all care about the stuff we care about, and the rest is negotiable. So yes, that means sometime Iron Man approaches Nova nicely, and sometimes Iron Man approaches Thor more aggressively. As long as the writers on those stories are approaching their work genuinely, each story can work—or at least has an equal chance of making the reader buy into it. Nobody is going to enjoy every comic book we put out, and a bad story is a bad story, but trying to be overly militant about some of this stuff is like creating a police state around the characters, and isn't going to allow anybody the luxury of doing anything interesting with them.
More later.
Tom B
thoughts?
_________________ Daily art blog Very Short Drawings
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Last edited by Monk on Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Rob Steinbrenner
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:34 am |
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He's just trying to explain why JMS writers Iron Man as a Hitler when no one else does 
_________________ I apologize for the above post.
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Eric W.H. Taft
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:53 am |
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Monk wrote: thoughts?
I won't say he's 100 percent on the mark, but he's pretty damn close to it. I feel much like he does.
As an example, for me Brubaker's Cap coexists with Stern's Cap coexists with Kirby's Cap just fine. They draw from the same basic well but interpret the contents of the well ever so slightly differently. And to me, that's a glorious and awesome thing, seeing what smart and talented people do with the same concept.
You can go too far, yes. You can screw things up. And even he says, "it's not an absolute with me even now." Which is good, because "absolute" can be a bad word.
"Nothing is written." -- 'Lawrence of Arabia,' as inspired by T.E. Lawrence.
But I'm behind his general viewpoint.
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Jeff
IMWAN Mod |
Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 10:59 am |
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The Modfather; Wizard of WAN
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I agree with this as well. It's simply impossible to really have a true running continuity with 40 or more years of stories anyway. As long as the stories have proper characterization, draw on the spirit of the past, what more can you ask for? Gross contradictions of major events of the heroes past? I'd say try and avoid that, but don't worry about the bulk of the stuff.
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Simon
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:00 am |
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At least he's talking about creators and fans in the same breath, and not drawing a line in the sand between the two groups of people, then daring everyone to cross it (like some creators like to do in their online adventures).
I think he makes some good points. Especially the part about how 'everything is true until it isn't true any more'. He seems to be very reasonable and realistic about it.
_________________ "They'll bite your finger off given a chance" - Junkie Luv (regarding Zebras)
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Monk
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:10 am |
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This is the point I'm at with comics, too. I don't worry too much about the "shared universe", I just want to read good stories. And given the numerous writers that have worked at Marvel and DC over the years, it's unrealistic to expect them all to write, say, Spider-Man exactly the same way. Even fans don't agree on what the right way to write characters is. I say, get the broad strokes right and I'm happy.
_________________ Daily art blog Very Short Drawings
Pay a visit to The Writers' Block, where writers, uh...write stuff!
Read my comic strip A Boy Called Monk
Read my comic book Town of Shadows
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Rob Steinbrenner
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:15 am |
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All I know is, when the marriage ends there will be hell to pay. or something.
_________________ I apologize for the above post.
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Rawburn
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:20 am |
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Monk wrote: This is the point I'm at with comics, too. I don't worry too much about the "shared universe", I just want to read good stories. And given the numerous writers that have worked at Marvel and DC over the years, it's unrealistic to expect them all to write, say, Spider-Man exactly the same way. Even fans don't agree on what the right way to write characters is. I say, get the broad strokes right and I'm happy.
IAWTP. I just want good stories. I suppose I do want my heroes to be recognizable, but expect they will evolve and grow from where they were previously.
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The Beyonder
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:22 am |
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Joined: | 28 Aug 2007 |
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Ten years ago, Tom B's comments would have had me screaming like a baby.
I've grown up since then.
A lot of respect for Tom for being able to write those paragraphs above in such a calm tone. If I were in his shoes, and had to put up with the abuse he does, I don't think I could be so nice.
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Eric W.H. Taft
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:25 am |
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Monk wrote: I say, get the broad strokes right and I'm happy.
My take exactly.
Captain America was a weakling who during World War II was turned into a highly-trained super soldier thanks to an experimental procedure. He became a war hero, was frozen in ice after an accident, and was thawed out years later, still alive. He is a noble, just man who believes in the American ideal. He has a shield.
Cut and dried, really ... and yet there is a LOT of room to play in there.
Spider-Man is Peter Parker, a brilliant young man named Peter Parker. He got his powers after being bitten by a spider, and learned responsibility when his uncle was killed by a man who could have been stopped had he used his powers for the greater good. He's bright, something of a minor social misfit, and his life is a series of ups and downs. No matter how good things get, a bad spell is always right around the corner. He has a loving aunt. When fighting evil he routinely finds himself way over his head.
Cut and dried, yet tons of room for all sorts of variations.
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Rob Steinbrenner
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:49 am |
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I don't know. I like the history. I don't mean every single thing to count or be remembered,
But one thing I like(d) about Marvel was its history and that was one thing I didn;t like about DC then-it had no history, not really post-crisis.
I like that Spidey was in highschool and went to college and grad school and now is a teacher blah blah blah.
When you take that away, you're left with something diminished, IMO.
The Ultimate Universe seemed like a perfect opportunity to have it both ways.
But there are some signs of slippage.
_________________ I apologize for the above post.
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Eric W.H. Taft
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:55 am |
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That's just it, though, I don't think he's saying take the history away, I think he's saying don't be a slave to it. Telling good stories is more important than ensuring you don't conflict with a panel from 22 years ago. Sounds about right to me.
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Steve
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:33 pm |
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What do you call a camel with three humps?
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Agreed. Who really cares about continuity errors between Civil War titles? So Iron Man was standing on one side on one cover, and on the other side on the other cover. BIG DEAL. Tell a good story.
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doc midnight
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:39 pm |
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My first post and it's for a good topic!
I think I fall in line with the general idea that any character that has been around for 10+ years can be said to have "feel" or something like it which can be used to determine how the charatcer behaves.
That being said, I don't think this means that characters can't be allowed to grow, evolve or change beyond what fans expected.
I have a friend who is pretty down on DC these days because of things like, the Max Lord "heel turn" and the "mishandling" of Bart Allen.
I feel that sometimes even the goofiest of characters can grow up and still be interesting and even the most oatmean of characters can wake up and be rattlesnakes one day.
I think Iron Man has been handled fine in that for the first time in a long time he's actually at the center of something interesting. Maybe some folks view him as a Nazi but for sure others should see him as a savior and there should not be any mandate to make sure that JMS or anyone else is giving us the Iron Man of 1984.
As far as History goes, its just a reference. I can't remember everything I said or did when I met my wife 15 years ago but when she reminds me of something, I know for damn sure that she remembers it all wrong.
We change so why can't our characters change? Just make it "Good".
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Eric W.H. Taft
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:48 pm |
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Welcome aboard, doc. Great first post!
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Ian Sokoliwski
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:00 pm |
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King of Goth
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Rob Steinbrenner
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:04 pm |
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Steve wrote: Agreed. Who really cares about continuity errors between Civil War titles? So Iron Man was standing on one side on one cover, and on the other side on the other cover. BIG DEAL. Tell a good story.
That's not a problem. But i do think something is wrong when IM is a reasonable, conflicted human being in every story, except in JMS's he's "THIS IS THE WAY IT'S DONE, MR. PARKER, DEAL WITH IT"

_________________ I apologize for the above post.
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Eric W.H. Taft
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:05 pm |
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Well, one might argue that in Amazing, we're seeing Iron Man from Peter's perspective, and therefore don't see the layers of inner conflict we might see in Iron Man.
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Eric W.H. Taft
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:06 pm |
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Not saying I subscribe to that theory, mind you, just floating the idea.
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Rob Steinbrenner
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:07 pm |
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I think we really are seeing how JMS feels about the whole affair. Even in Thor, IM shows up, he acts like a doof.
I think CW in general was written really depending on the ability of the creators to separate themselves from the politics. Many couldn't do it. Jenkins couldn't.
_________________ I apologize for the above post.
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Rob Steinbrenner
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:08 pm |
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Plus, IM was like "Hey don't worry, the negative zone imprisonment isn't permanent it's temporary" and in Amazing, it was "Peter this is permanent, it's not changing get used to it"
Silly Iron Man.
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Stephane Garrelie
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Post subject: Brevoort: the history must serve the stories more than the stories must serve the history Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:11 pm |
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Of course the stories are what matters first, but how a story that is in contradiction with the history and doesn't gave an explanation for a major contradiction could ring right? It's ok if it's some out of continuity stuff, but other than that...
Brubaker's Cap and Bucky are interesting, but given that Bucky learns the secret identity of cap in a different way than the classic version, it makes this run as different from 60s-to-80s cap as a "What if...?" would be. Thats simply not "what happens after". And that's just one of the many differences (Bucky's age, 40's personality, etc...). Most of wich are not explained. Thats a good run. Just with a different past. Very good, but something else.
And Bru's Cap is good, but what to say of "sin past" or of the early-90s-to-current treatment(s) of Iron Man? Something of wich Brevoort is directly responsible.
Don't get me wrong Brevoort is a nice guy and he knows his Marvel history. But that's not always enough to take the good decisions.
Probably the best Marvel editor today, but the others being people like Alonso or Queseda...
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Last edited by Stephane Garrelie on Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:21 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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