Thought about putting it in the Sword and Sorcery Thread, but I think he deserves his own. Christopher Tolkien, son of JRR Tolkien and steward of the Tolkien literary estate passed away on Thursday at a well lived 95. Of course, his father created the world of Middle Earth, but up until almost the end, Christopher did the best he could to protect it from exploitation, and all the while giving scholars and fanatics a deep insight into the evolutionary process that went in to creating The Lord of the Rings. I know nothing else about his life, but that was enough. Without his efforts, some of Tolkien's greatest writings - and many say his preferred stories - would never would have seen the light of day. Even if you limit yourself to the Silmarillion, it adds so much depth and beauty of the Lord of the Rings that it's worth it.
I would have preferred he not do the modern novels (Fall of Gondolin, Beren and Luthien, Children of Hurin), but also understand that they would probably have been done after his death without his involvement. And for the most part, the content that was produced with his blessing was of the highest quality. The very highest, sir. So thanks for everything, Mr. Tolkien, and Rest In Peace
His answer made me laugh out loud... quite loud... and my original post was "Hahahahahahahahahahahahaha!" ...But that has been moved to spoilers since I didn't want to spoil it for anyone else.
_________________ Because life is a treasure. —Dave Powell
When I first saw the movies, I had not read the book(s). I saw them with a friend who was a fan of the book(s). I turned to him in the theater and said "There's eagles!?"
When I first saw the movies, I had not read the book(s). I saw them with a friend who was a fan of the book(s). I turned to him in the theater and said "There's eagles!?"
You were not the only one, I'm sure.
When I first read the books at age 17 I had the same thought as the bloke who wrote the letter Tolkien refers to in the video.
I think you have to read those books at fairly early age to truly fall in love with them. I was too old and it didn't 'take'. I was always more of a science fiction guy than a fantasy guy, although I was a sword & sorcery guy also. Just never got into the elves/dwarves/gnomes stuff in a big way as a kid.
_________________ "They'll bite your finger off given a chance" - Junkie Luv (regarding Zebras)
shut up. Quite funny, of course. But there are some good answers to this question, are there not? While Sauron lived he could see the eagles coming, sense the one ring almost immediately when it lacked ground cover, would discern their intent to destroy it instead of use it, which is practically unfathomable to Sauron, and could intercept it long before it got to Mt. Doom using the Ring Wraiths. The odds were exceedingly good that plan would fail and the one ring would end up in Sauron's hands and doom all of Middle Earth for all time. The ring had to be sneaked in, near the ground, secretly and undercover, and by those who Sauron wouldn't give a second thought to even if he did hear rumors about them, as long as he didn't actually see them. Or so it seems.
Besides, it seems unlikely the eagles would risk their lives for this quest and take up such a suicide run while Sauron could get the ring. After the one ring was destroyed, of course, they could fly in with a reasonable chance of success, so rescuing a couple of hobbits wasn't too great a favor to ask.
Jilerb is correct, and the secretive nature of their entrance into Mordor is emphasized in the Peter Jackson movies as it is in the books. Not being noticed by Sauron is essential to the whole plan.
_________________ "They'll bite your finger off given a chance" - Junkie Luv (regarding Zebras)
Nah. Eagles heading in (from multiple directions and destination vectors) would get the ring in before Sauron has time to figure out what's going on and marshal a response (since what you are up to is inconceivable to him...and eagles heading toward Bara-dûr from multiple directions will look like some sort of attack or reconnaissance at first until one peels off to Mount Doom). Especially effective right after the black riders were discombobulated at the ford and still slinking their way back to Mordor.
_________________ Because life is a treasure. —Dave Powell
Well...possibly. I do find it hard to accept that Frodo had so little help in general given the fact that Sauron presented a threat to literally everyone and everything. The situation you describe, Brotoro, could've worked.
_________________ "They'll bite your finger off given a chance" - Junkie Luv (regarding Zebras)
I think I've read or heard that the eagles are angelic beings that assist mankind at various times, but are not at their command. Their ways are inscrutable, because they are in some sense in service of Eru, and they don't know Eru's full purposes (kind of like a less sentient version Gandalf and the other Maiar)
So all of the questions of this nature in LOTR boil down to the philosophical -- i.e. why does Eru (God) forbear and allow mankind to struggle against evil, instead of using all power at his disposal to cause good to win once and for all? The world of LOTR is filled with elements that correspond to our questions about why there is any struggle at all in the created order -- which ultimately devolves in to questions of why anything matters at all.
The eagles in Lord of the Rings are a plot hole, but also an us problem
Everybody shut up about the eagles there’s an explanation for the eagles
The giant eagle that Gandalf calls up in The Fellowship of the Ring is sentient, one of an entire race of giant eagles that’s as old as the dwarves or the ents. This is one of the many bits of Tolkien lore that Philippa Boyens, Peter Jackson, and Fran Walsh decided would stay on the cutting floor of a trilogy that’s already over nine hours long.
Gandalf’s particular eagle friend is Gwaihir the Windlord, who owes Gandalf for some service the wizard paid to him in the past — possibly a life-debt, though The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings are somewhat contradictory on this. When Gwaihir gives Gandalf a ride in The Lord of the Rings, he’s doing the wizard a favor. He doesn’t do requests.
Gwaihir noticed Gandalf on top of Saruman’s tower and agreed to rescue him, but would only take him as far as Edoras in Rohan. Then, he noticed Gandalf on top of the peak of Zirak-zigil, after he defeated the Balrog, and agreed to take him on another short trip to Lothlorien. When Gandalf asked Gwaihir to help rescue Sam and Frodo from Mount Doom, it was with a promise to never ask him for anything else ever again. “Twice you have borne me, Gwaihir my friend, [...] Thrice shall pay for all, if you are willing,” he said to the Windlord in The Return of the King.
Like most of how Gandalf flexes power in The Lord of the Rings, it’s not about magic, but about politicking. The giant eagles of Middle-earth aren’t beasts to tame, like Shadowfax; they have their own society and concerns. And just like literally everyone else in the story, it takes a lot of work to get them to care about all this Dark Lord stuff until it affects them directly. The eagles can’t carry the Fellowship to Mordor because Gandalf can’t simply summon a squadron of birds to divebomb Mount Doom.
Without a throwaway line or a hung lampshade from Boyens, Jackson, and Walsh, it’s reasonable for movie fans to wonder why the Fellowship can’t ride eagles to Mordor. But the real problem is that book fans are always there with the answer.
True, there is no way the eagles would cooperate with that massive and suicidal (for many of them) plan, and besides, the one ring is like a beacon so Sauron would know which eagle had it if they were so openly brazen about bringing it to Mt. Doom in the clear like that. And he may able to do more than just use black riders. All forces at his commend would concentrate on the one ring bearer, and I think it would take long enough to get to Mt. Doom that he'd have time to intercept the one ring, whose location would be obvious to him without proper cover.
Also, that part about the angelic types not using their full power is probably part of it - instead allowing mortals to do the heavy lifting, or not - it's their choice.
The ring is a beacon? Then why couldn't Sauron see it when Frodo is walking along with it just outside the gates of Mordor? Or when his black rider is 10 feet away? Or when it's just sitting in a river? How much mass does it take to shield it? Wrap it in lead?
_________________ Because life is a treasure. —Dave Powell
The ring is a beacon? Then why couldn't Sauron see it when Frodo is walking along with it just outside the gates of Mordor? Or when his black rider is 10 feet away? Or when it's just sitting in a river? How much mass does it take to shield it? Wrap it in lead?
It doesn't take much, evidently, especially when he's not already looking right at it, but with nothing but air, and with him looking right at it, I suspect he could detect it.
In D&D terms, yeah, wrap it in lead foil - maybe it wouldn't even adversely affect the guy carrying it, then. But we can't be sure since we are not privy to enough of the details on how magic works in Middle Earth.
Last edited by Jilerb on Wed Apr 27, 2022 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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