Both Plum and Junkie mentioned that they were going through this series for the first time. Must be something in the air (The Rona????), cause I started doing this too.

I figured three IMWANners is enough of a critical mass that it might be worth having a thread where we can post our “first time” Voyager thoughts, and anyone else can join in with thoughts on the series as well … and if it inspires other folks to also do a re-watch, even better.

I’ll start: I’m just about wrapping up Season 4. (I decided to skip around a bit. I’m going chronologically, but I am leapfrogging over episodes that don’t sound all that cool to me.)

General thoughts: Tuvok and the Doctor are the best regular characters, head and shoulders above everyone else.

Neelix has the ugliest make-up design of any regular character in any Trek series ever.

Generally speaking, in fact, I’m not fond of the makeup designs for the aliens on this show. I just finished “Living Witness,” which introduced two new alien races. One of them looks like the usual generic Trek alien of the 80s and 90s and it’s fine, but the other one is distinguished mainly by two disgusting wart-things in between their eyes. Gross to even look at them. And what was with that recurring villain-race from the early seasons who were supposed to be menacing but had those ridiculously gigantic hair-dos?

So far, the series isn’t awful, but I’d rank it right now at #5, the very bottom amongst the pre-reboot Trek series.

I’m trying to think right now of which episodes were standouts for me, but at the moment it’s all blending together. But if we get a convo going, I’m sure I’ll start to remember which ones have been the most enjoyable to me so far.

(Wait, I do remember a couple: The two-parter with Ed Begley and Sarah Silverman was fun. And the Species 8457 two-parter as well.)

I'd agree about Tuvok & The Doctor being standout characters - they're the ones I liked the most, with Kes & Tom Paris being my least favourite ones.

Neelix doesn't really deserve all the disdain he gets, IMO, despite looking...well, weird. I think he ends up having some decent episodes as the series progresses.

The Kazon (the hairdo people) were an off-brand version of the Klingons, IMO. They hang around for a while, but eventually Voyager leaves that area of space, etc. There's eventually some good stuff involving them but nothing great. Seska is another excellent character and I wish she'd been around longer as a nemesis for Janeway.

Good idea for a thread, Doot. I don't think I'll comment on every episode as I go along (as I stated in Doot's Trek literature thread, I'm following along with Keith DeCandido's twice-weekly Voyager watch project on Tor, now finishing up season 2), but I'll chime in now and then.

The two episodes I watched last week were really interesting. First up was "The Thaw", featuring Voyager coming across a planet where the last handful of survivors of an ecological disaster are connected in a virtual reality while their bodies are comatose. A few of the Voyager crew, eventually including the Doctor, make their way inside to try and free the survivors but find themselves in a creepy surreal hellscape, with Michael McKean playing a truly disturbing clown. As a horror fan, I really loved the imagery, and still found the episode really creepy in 2020. Killer ending, too, one of the best "fade to black" moments I've seen in the entire franchise. Might be my favorite episode of the show so far.

Then came "Tuvix", which I had also never seen but somehow---apparently mistakenly---had come to believe was regarded as one of the series' worst. I always cringed when I heard the concept, probably because of my immense dislike of Neelix, but I found it really engaging, and the guy playing the merged Tuvok/Neelix was terrific. You could really see both characters in his mannerisms and speech. And what a really, really harsh and difficult dilemma the episode poses....couldn't help but feel empathy for Tuvix, once he had clearly become his own sentient being, separate from the two beings he came from, and who understandably did not want to die. The only real shame of the episode is its relatively abrupt ending, meaning we don't really get to see Janeway or the others grapple with the consequences of her decision. Not saying it wasn't the right decision, but is one that nevertheless should haunt anyone who has to make it.

Tuvix is one of my all-time favourite Star Trek stories. I hated Janeway the first time I watched it. It took me a long while to forgive her (which sounds insane, I know), but I eventually understood why she made the choice she did, even if I still think she did it for selfish reasons (she missed Tuvok).

The actor who played Tuvix (Tom Wright) did an amazing job of making you care about him in such a short span of time and, as Professor Plum said, really did a great job of conveying the idea that this was a whole new person while still maintaining mannerisms that reminded us of both his 'parent' characters. It was such a clever use of the old 'transporter accident' trope and the fact that it's still being talked about twenty four years after it was aired is evidence of its success as an episode and a uniquely Star Trek style ethical dilemma.

Yeah, the Kazon! Perfectly fine villains, but I hated their stupid hair helmets.

I skipped both of these.

Tuvix is well worth a look as is The Thaw.

I'd take the time to rewatch the series right now and follow along, if you were at the beginning and going chronologically, but if you're just skipping around or are already well into it, I'll just rely on memory and comment where I feel I have something to say, probably paralleling any comments made by others.

For example . . .

Neelix was probably my least favorite character, I think, and Kim never did much for me, either. A cook on a ship with replicators - it never made a lot of sense to me. Yeah, he did more than that, and he has some surprising skills, but mostly he's annoying. He was pretty essential for Niomi Wildman, though.


And Kim was just underused. About the most interesting thing about him is the one we ended up with isn't the one we started with - not that it makes a huge difference.

Chakotay was about the worst first officer I've ever seen, and I found his generic or ambiguous native American background unconvincing. What real Native Americans thought of it, I can only guess. But I'm gonna bet they weren't honored.

The Kazons were O.K., but a bit too powerful given their ignorance (and the fact they usurped their tech) and they seemed too far spread out and were in the series too long since, I would have thought, Voyager would have headed away from them and out of their territory fairly quickly. IIRC, the same Kazons were plaguing Voyager, as if they had the tech to keep up with one of Starfleet's most advanced ships (and them without even replicator tech, and still scrounging for water - itself an almost unreal thing to do for those who have the run of multiple stellar systems), and a reason to devout for much to that one goal. Maybe Janeway was constantly doubling back for unknown reasons and that might explain better why the same Kazons kept having multiple bites at the same apple, but in hindsight I think it was a bit unrealistic for them to be the main villains for as long as they were - at least using the same Kazons.

Other than that, they were OK bad guys. I didn't mind their hair - better than another weird bump on the bridge of one's nose, and their culture seemed better developed.

I never thought Janeway made the wrong call on Tuvix. I'd have to watch it again, but it's almost simple math - 2 lives for 1, and those 2 with complicated interactions with family and friends and colleagues compared to one with no real ties to anybody and no family at all and no memories of his own and no real history. I'm not sure how useful Tuvix would have been compared to a head of security and trusted Starfleet officer (whose very presence could often mean life or death for all of them) or the demise of one of the locals in the delta quadrant, their adopted ambassador. What, let an ambassador die? Yeah, sucks Tuvix played the Radio Star, but I'm not sure he earned a life more valuable than the two he'd take or a tech accident gave him a greater right to life than the other two.


It's better to have lived and lost than to have never lived at all.

Compare that to holographic life or computer based life and just shutting them off. No one seems to think that's as bad - or they'd be talking about that more 20+ years later, and they aren't - as much, anyway.

Tuvix was MURDERED!

The thing about Tuvix is that he expresses a desire to live - and is then dragged, pleading for his life, to be 'killed', having committed no crime other than existing. It's not a question of the mathematics of it, but of Janeway's decision to end the life of a person pleading for the right to continue living that makes it powerful. There were similar TNG episodes with Data (The Measure Of A Man) and also The Doctor in Voyager, who makes similarly heartfelt pleas to be treated as a person with the right to exist and to be treated with respect...which Janeway listens to.

I take your point about it being a life-or-death decision, but we don't see Tuvix do anything wrong, and he appears to have inherited the best qualities of both his 'parents' so why execute the guy? It seemed - and still seems - cruel to me. It made me question Janeway. Until that point I'd thought of her a kind of Kirk-style tough but fair leader who was prepared to tackle the odds and stick to her principles, but the way that final scene plays out it seems to me she makes an emotional decision not a rational one. She wants Tuvok back and so she sacrifices Tuvix while he pleads for his life.

I didn't like why she did what she did, is what I'm saying.

The Oompa-Loompas!

I skipped them too. I had seen the Tuvix ep years ago. I started on "The Thaw" but didn't get past the ridiculous dancing scene at the very beginning. I'll go back and watch them.

I just saw the Silverman/Begley two-parter last night! It was fun and it was neat seeing her early in her career.

I'm only so far into the third season.

Their Native American advisor for the show was a fraud and no, they were not honored.

https://indiancountrytoday.com/archive/ ... indk8TYh6g

I watched the whole run of the show two years ago, so I'll follow along too. I binged it, so a lot blurs together. I agree the Kazon were knock-off Klingons and not very interesting. Harry Kim wasn't given much to do and ended up the show still an Ensign, 7 years later...so not much career development for him either.

Best characters are the doctor and Seven of Nine, for me. Seven's development over the course of the show was great. (Spoiler in case people aren't up on the recent Trek shows)

Part of the problem is they are not supposed to go around creating new life with their tech - it sets a bad precedent. And while Tuvix didn't do anything wrong, per se, he was saying his life was more important than two others, who also did nothing wrong, and his opinion was the other two's family and friends and colleagues just have to accept it. It's not really an enlightened attitude, and while maybe most people don't need to justify their worth to keep their life, Tuvix would almost have to if he intended to stay on board and not allow the other two back.

You say Tuvix had the best of both of his "parents"? I doubt either of them would insist their life was more important than another's - certainly not Tuvok, anyway. They may have even told Janeway not to kill Tuvix had they a voice at the time, but they didn't have a say. But Janeway thought about what was best for the crew, her ship, and her mission. The so-called "mathematics" of it isn't just 2>1, but those 2's contribution > Tuvix's contribution to the very survival of everyone and the success of their mission.

Also, consider, it may similarly be said Janeway would have murdered Neelix and Tuvok if she had decided otherwise. The decision was still within her power. One couldn't just say, oops, transporter accident, they're dead, nothing we can do about it, the end, when the ability to reverse the accident remained.

Add to that the vitally important role of Tuvok, whose absence would likely, not just maybe, but likely, lead to the death of many others - maybe even the whole crew. Recall, they are not home so they cannot just replace a vital crewmember with an equally competent and well-trained one from all of Starfleet personnel.

Cruel? Yes, I suppose, capital punishment is cruel, particularly for the innocent, but it's also capital punishment for the other two while the ability to reverse the accident remained. Maybe it's less cruel since those two wouldn't have time to contemplate their impending loss of life, but then one might get the impression it's almost more acceptable to murder somebody when you can shut off their lights so quickly they never see it coming. There's is something wrong with that argument, so either way, some innocent will lose their life or lives. One innocent life lost, or two? One who is less likely to help, or two who are far more likely to help? Math.

It was a hard decision, but I never thought Janeway made the wrong one there. As for her "why" I'm not sure you are looking at everything. I do not think, for example, her only concern was to get her friend back and the others can go fuck themselves.

Now, in Paths of Glory, since a French WW1 attack didn't go so well, the powers that be decided it must have been due to general cowardice in the ranks. Their solution? Select 3 men at random and execute them by firing squad to set an example of what happens when you don't bravely run to your deaths when ordered. Even worse, the powers that be were more at fault, and the selection wasn't truly random. Now that's the sort of thing that's too disgusting for words - not what Janeway did. IMO, she made the right call.

Damn, that's wild.

In "Sacred Ground" when Janeway was trying to explain to senior crew about undertaking the spiritual journey to save Kes, I was surprised they didn't write Chakotay better. This whole thing about faith in the unknown is right in his wheelhouse and he acted like just another science officer who had never communed with the dead or spoke with spirit guides.

I like your point, but I think the difference is that the existence of Data and the Doctor does not preclude the existence of anyone else's life, whereas Tuvix could only exist at the cost of 2 others.

Personally, I respect Janeway (at least, as much as I can respect a fictional character) for making the horrible choice, as a Captain must be willing to make from time to time. Maybe it would have been less controversial if she had made the case to Tuvix why it should happen but ultimately let it be his decision.

Maybe there could have been a dramatic element where the success of the procedure was a lot less assured, meaning that ultimately all 3 lives would be lost if things went wrong.

I don't recall if reversing the accident came with a decent probability it would fail and all would be lost.

Were some odds given?

Tuvix sounds like a whiny bitch. There, I've said it.

I've started the fifth season. I really liked the fifth-season opener, "Night." Might be my favorite of the series so far.