Wherein we postulate the existence of parallel or mirror-universes based upon
whatever particular topic has our attention at the moment. For example, the
parallel universe that must exist where Adam West won the role of Captain Kirk
in the Star Trek TV show. What then happened to him, Star Trek, and/or Shatner?

To participate in the thread, participants should describe the initial, subtle change
that took place that differentiated their universe from our own. Then, additional posts
either can expand upon those or suggest other changes that may have happened.

Among casual comic book fans, Joe Maneely is little known (if at all). His entire comics
career fits into a small range of years: 1948–1958. He becomes friends with Stan Lee in the
mid 1950s, and he co-creates the Black Knight, the Ringo Kid, Yellow Claw, and Jimmy Woo.
Maneely's pencil artwork was said to be crude or non-existent by others. He "drew" in the
inking stage. He was a versatile craftsman. He could make anything he drew exciting. Lee
believed he was supposed to have been the next Jack Kirby, and he was possibly even faster.


At some point in 1958, Maneely is said to have lost his glasses. And, a week afterwards, on his
way home, after having had a late dinner with John Severin and George Ward, Joe Maneely
accidentally walked between two commuter cars and fell on the train tracks. His destroyed
body was found later still clinging to his art portfolio.

Had he not died at that point in history, some suggest that Maneely—and not Jack Kirby—
would have ben entrusted with the likes of the Fantastic Four, Thor, and the Hulk. Marvel
Comics as we know it today certainly would have been different than what it was and is now.

So… in this parallel world, I suggest that Joe Maneely doesn't lose his glasses. He does not
die on train tracks on New York in the 1958. What happens?

If Joe Maneely had lived, perhaps the first thing that needs to be considered is the financial state
of Atlas Comics in the mid 1950s. Times were tight. Martin Goodman was cheap, and he had brought
Jack Kirby back because he knew Jack was worth his weight in at least three other cartoonists
—while making about the same money as one cartoonist!

But, if Goodman already had such a speedy workhorse in Joe Maneely, does Kirby even come back
to work for Atlas Comics at this time? Does Atlas fold up? I remember in Kirby's account, he pictures
Stan Lee crying as the furniture is being trucked away, and with Kirby making the last-minute save of Atlas.

So, does Jack Kirby come aboard or not?

I think my parallel world is begging for Maneely AND Kirby to be there and very productive at the same time.
Simon and Kirby's studio failed and Kirby is scrambling, taking on freelance art from wherever he can: this
includes Atlas in 1956 (even though they still owe him money from his Captain America efforts). Joe Maneely
doesn't die in 1958, so… how much actual work does Kirby get? And, if you have both Maneely and Kirby
still on staff after 1958, is there room for anyone else? Ditko? Maybe, maybe not.

For example, Atlas used to employ several writers, but, during this financial crunch, it gets down pretty much
to just Stan Lee, right? It's just Stan and artists with good story-telling abilities on their own. Plus, Stan Lee has
that closet full of rejected art that Goodman supposedly finds stashed away. It's paid for, but Lee was hiding it
away because he said it wasn't very good. But Goodman wants it published. There's little to none new work
available at that moment. In our world, people like Joe Sinnott lost his job for at least six months. In this parallel
world, does Sinnott ever come back?

I am trying to image an Atlas/Marvel Universe where Jack Kirby is demon-speed penciling loose but powerful
layouts, which Joe Maneely is finishing up with equal speed. But… Atlas is stuck in a deal with their rivals to
publish their titles (and no more than a dozen will be accepted each month), and Goodman has burned so
many bridges in the industry that they can't go back to distributing their own work.

I'm thinking that if something else doesn't happen, Atlas Comics in 1958 might consist almost entirely of
Martin Goodman, Stan Lee (with perhaps some spot work for Larry Leiber), Jack Kirby, and Joe Maneely.
They and the closet full of backup-story inventory can fill 12 issues a month.

Who was doing lettering and coloring for Atlas in the late 1950s and early 1960s?

Some quick searching online makes it seem like three free-lancers were doing most of the lettering in the
1950s for DC, Atlas, and King Features: Gaspar Saladino, Sam Rosen, and Ben Oda. So that probably
stays the same.

Hmmm… I'm just reading some accounts of Marie Servin, and Servin makes it sound like Timely/Atlas
was doing most of its lettering in house (people like Chris Rule). She came on to do coloring when EC folds,
but she then leaves (gets cut in 1957) for greeting-card work when things started folding at Atlas. Looks
like she was working for the Federal Reserve bank and educational film strips right after being cut from Atlas.

I'm not sure when she comes back, but I want her working on my Marvel staff along with her brother John
because he and Joe Maneely got along so well together. It seems destined to continue. So, likewise, Marie
continues to do coloring, production work, and she illustrates House Ads and those text stories that Stan used
to whip out in order to get more-favorable shipping rates on the comic books being produced.

So, my Marvel staff retains John Severin and his sister Marie.

Is there room for Ditko?

Obvious there was. Steve does work for Atlas starting in 1956.
But does he get those Battle stories in 1959/60? The Journey Into Mystery work in 1959-63?
I'm guessing not. And without that 50s and early 60s work, he doesn't get Amazing Adventures
and Amazing Adult Fantasy. Ditko probably continues to work at Charlton and does even more
for them.

So, no Doctor Strange. But what becomes of Spider-Man? Does Kirby get assigned to it to
actually complete? It probably goes instead to Joe Maneely. I can see either Joe or Jack
taking on Thor, and perhaps with Joe inking Jack. Based upon Joe's Black Knight work, would
the armored-might of Iron Man fall more into Maneely's guiding hands? How about Don Heck, then?
I'm not sure he returns to Atlas in 1959, or, if he does, probably in a more limited capacity.

Is there a world where Stan Lee, Larry Lieber, Joe Maneely, Jack Kirby, Steve Ditko, and John Severin
are all producing quality—and quantity—work together in the early 1960s?

I dearly want to see the comics.

Bumping because this thread is awesome.

What about a world where Star Trek wasn't cancelled after its third season? Does it go on to become the beloved icon of science fiction and popular culture we know today or does it fade into obscurity like so many other TV shows that overstayed their welcome?

I'd like to think things would've worked out the same, or very similarly, to the way we know it did with Star Trek becoming a vital part of 20th Century pop culture...but I do wonder if Trek would've had quite the same impact if it hadn't been championed for so long by fandom? It may not have had the lasting appeal it's had if it hadn't been cut down in its prime and eventually revived thanks to the perseverance of the fans.

In 1987, Jim Shooter was offered a choice: Relax your dictatorial control and allow creative more freedom , or you're fired. Seeing much of their top talent defect to DC, Shooter relents, and accepts the first option. At the same time, he begins aggressively recruiting top talent from DC's lower ranks to supplement the artists and writers who jumped ship. Young artists like Todd McFarlane, Rob Liefeld, and Erik Larson are brought over, and begin building their careers.

Shooter's changes lead to more creative satisfaction and more risk-taking on books. He allows radical changes to status quo on mainstream titles, with the proviso that within a set period of time, the writer/artist allow for a way for the characters to return to "the way things ought to be". He allows the New Universe characters to be absorbed into the Marvel Universe in a big cosmic crossover, Secret Wars III.

In the summer of 1990, Shooter convenes a "Creators Summit" with Marvel's top talent to map out the next 10 years of Marvel comics. He begins to hear of dissatisfaction from some of the artists on core books about how their contributions aren't being taken seriously. He makes a bold Shooter-esque pledge: "Produce a comic that sells a million copies, and you can have anything you want". In Christmas of 1990, Todd McFarlane's Spider-Man sells 2.5 million. 3 months later, Rob Liefeld's X-Force sells double that. 3 months after that, Jim Lee's X-Men sells 10 million copies.

True to his word, Shooter convense a second Creator's Summit in the summer of 1991, but only invites seven of Marvel's top artists. He pitches them a radical notion of pulling them from their millions-selling titles, and creating a creator-owned imprint under the Marvel banner: a re-branded EPIC Comics is born. Marvel takes 15% of the profits, and the creators get the rest. They run the ship like a separate company, but Marvel makes sure the books are published and distributed equally to Marvel titles, and marketed with an equivalent budget.

By the end of 1992, Marvel Enterprises has over 75% of the comics market share. DC tries some last-ditch sales stunts like killing Superman, but they fail to produce equivalent sales. Shooter is promoted to Chief Creative Office of Marvel Entertainment, and Todd McFarlane is given the title of Editor-in-Chief of Marvel, with Erik Larson as EiC of Epic.

What happens next?

It's hard to see "Star Trek" not having something like its seminal impact, even if a poorly-done fourth or fifth season turned some viewers off. There would still have been nothing else on TV or in movie theaters at the time that offered fans anything like it, so it would surely have continued to have a dedicated fan base. Which in turn would have led to the motion picture series that did so much to revive the franchise. Now if something (Loss of a principal cast member or other key figure, for example) had happened that kept the movies from ever coming off, that would surely have diminished "Star Trek's" long-term stature.

Yes, with a perfect example. If Jeffrey Hunter had remained Christopher Pike and the lead of the show, it would probably have died with him.

I enjoyed rereading this thread (having forgotten all about it).
But I can imagine in a parallel universe where it lasted at least 12 more pages before having been forgotten.

It's all pop culture, so let's try it in the Playroom.

A world where the rumoured fourth season of Batman on NBC happened, returning to the format of two episodes per week with a cliffhanger.

I thought about this years ago, and I concluded that what I wanted to see (and no disrespect to Burt Ward)
was to have "Robin" go off to college. He would still be in some stories (having accidentally discovered some
criminal threat, home on vacation, or whatever), but I wanted the show to focus more upon Batman and Batgirl
team-ups. Both characters would know each other's identity, but their partnership needn't be a romantic relationship
but neither did it have to stray away from a mutual sexual tension between them. Sort of like Steed and Peel in
the Avengers. Continue the camp and fun, but also elevate the stories to be a little more adult. Fewer comments
about seat belt safety or lectures of that sort, but certainly some moments like the Batman/Robin/Batgirl PSA
commercial where Babs might have to put Bruce in his place if he got to mansplaining too much.

I would also have room in my Season 4 for some mostly Batgirl and Robin team-ups, and even some solo hero
adventures. One film crew, for example, could be off filming the first episode of the week while another focused
on the second episode. Stories could carry over/across. Each character could take turns tracking down and
(perhaps) saving the others.

The BtAS did take this sort of approach with Dick going off to become Nightwing, and while they introduced a new
Robin, there was certainly more of a Batman/Batgirl team up going on, with Batman having taken Babs on to help
train her as a partner.

Obviously, we didn't have a Dick Grayson Nightwing character in the late 1960s, but there's no reason why Robin
couldn't have taken on a slightly more adult costume. Longer pants, maybe. Perhaps more of a Robin Hood look.

Crate. Scorched.

This thread has risen from obscurity to become a gold-medal winning Olympic champion.

I agree with you, Daphne - I also think Star Trek would've had a similar kind of impact in the long term even if it had gone for six seasons instead of three, for the reasons you stated, but the fact that it was brought back from oblivion by its fans did lend it a unique kind of status.

When Back to the Future premieres in 1985, it is a huge flop. Critics and audiences agree that the story and special effects are top notch, but the movie dies every time the lead actor, Eric Stoltz, is on screen.

This one's so parallel it's frightening. What if they'd cast someone else entirely, not Stoltz or Fox? What if it'd been Judd Nelson, Andrew McCarthy or Robert Downey Jnr. in that role?

I think it could've been a hit with actors other than Michael J. Fox in the lead...but I agree 100% that Eric Stoltz would've killed the movie stone dead.

Now I think about it...a whole bunch of actors could've portrayed Marty in BTTF. Similarly, Michael J. Fox could've been a star in a lot of other movies as well.

Matthew Broderick might have been a great Marty McFly and Michael J. Fox could've been a great Ferris Bueller. I can imagine Fox being good in any number of other 80's 'teen' movies.

In fact a quick look at Wikipedia tells me this about the role of Ferris Bueller...



Interesting and interestinger.

Hopefully in some universe, the US blizzards of winter 1977-78 didn't happen and there was no DC Implosion. Books like Shade The Changing Man lasted for years, JSA continued, Levitz had a long run on Hawkman and Jim Aparo had a well regarded stint on Deadman.